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Codename Entertainment
Upgradable Trinkets

2 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 30th 2017 at 9:17 PM
CountBasic
I would like to have the ability to upgrade some rare trinkets to epic.
An occasional card from an event chest could empower one upgrade to a specified trinket for epic or legendary material...?

859 Posts
Link to post - Posted July 1st 2017 at 7:01 AM
Andreas
So, you want a card from an event chest to enable you to upgrade a single trinket from rare to epic? Why not ask for higher chances to get epic trinkets from chests directly?

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted July 1st 2017 at 1:43 PM
Animenut
^^^See Andreas' comment.

46 Posts
Link to post - Posted July 1st 2017 at 9:21 PM
Muljo Stpho
Hmmm, yeah, what they said. We could certainly try to suggest some ways to tweak or change how trinkets function, but I can't see tying a new trinket mechanism into event chests specifically.

But the relative value of trinkets does kind of end up in a weird place after you've been playing for a while. I currently have:
* 1306 brass ring: at 1% each, that's 1306% DPS
* 610 silver ring: at 2% each, that's 1220% DPS
* 148 golden ring: at 4% each, that's 592% DPS
* 20 diamond ring: at 8% each, that's 160% DPS
** grand total = 3278% DPS

The common items account for 1306 / 3278 = 39.84% of my bonus.
The uncommon items account for 1220 / 3278 = 37.21% of my bonus.
The rare items account for 592 / 3278 = 18.06% of my bonus.
The epic items account for 160 / 3278 = 4.88% of my bonus.

Epics [i]sound[/i] nice with their 8% apiece compared to the 1, 2, or 4 on the lesser quality items, but in the grand scheme of things after however many thousands of silver and jeweled chests (let's see what my stats say... over 28,400 silver and exactly 806 jeweled chests opened (which includes event chests and purchased chests, I think)), epic trinkets are actually a fairly small piece of the trinkets DPS bonus.

Plus there's diminishing returns on each new trinket as more and more of them pile up. If I'm at 3278 and I gain one more epic for a new total of 3286, I've only increased the size of my bonus to x1.0024 times larger.

Anyway...

The proposed new item to upgrade a trinket... Well, first off this new item would likely just be in the same "bucket" that trinkets are drawn from, so instead of ending up with common, uncommon, rare, and epic in a ratio of 40 : 37 : 18 : 5 you'd have a few shaved off somewhere to create a few of the upgrade items (instead of 100 trinkets of various quality it might be 96 trinkets of various quality + 4 upgraders) So you get 211 / 226 = 93.36% as much % bonus out of the RNG compared to results from before the upgrade item was added. (226 being the value for 100 trinkets in those ratios, 211 being the value for 96 trinkets assuming that each quality loses 1 for there to be upgraders.) But then you use those 4 upgrades to turn some rares into epics and end up at 227%. Just +1 value compared to the original ratio. (At least based on my numbers. RNG is RNG and each person could see better or worse depending on their luck.)

Or they could go for upgraders getting a much larger share of the bucket than that, resulting in an even smaller number of actual trinkets picked up to begin with but allowing for many more of them to be pushed up in quality. Like maybe we get drops in a ratio of 35 common : 32 uncommon : 13 rare : 0 epic : 20 upgrader. That's only 151% value from 100 results (ie 80 trinkets) but then the 20 upgraders might turn those results into 35 common, 28 uncommon, 1 rare, and 16 epic. (13R -> 13E, 1U -> 1R, and 3U -> 3R -> 3E) That's... 223%, which is 3 less than the 226% value of the original ratio... Granted, that was just trying to use all 20 upgrades within each set of 100 results, but in actual practice we'd save up the upgraders from across hundreds of results and then apply them ALL to just the rares instead of burning extra on U->R->E.

It sounds like the idea adds extra steps for what could generally turn out to be very little gain compared to what the current scheme produces.

I'd say leave the drops alone and instead consider an idea more along the lines of either:

A) add a talent to increase the value per trinket by whatever amount per each talent level (if for example it's 10% bonus at talent level 1, then 1 / 2 / 4 / 8 becomes 1.1 / 2.2 / 4.4 / 8.8, and then at level 2 it's 20% so that you then have 1.2 / 2.4 / 4.8 / 9.6, and so on up to whatever the talent caps at)

B) add an option to pay some rubies (or some crafting materials (not catalyst though unless it's a large batch purchase like 1 LC for 10 legendary trinkets)) to convert A common, B uncommon, C rare, and D epic trinkets of the same type into a legendary trinket of that type, with the legendary being worth a high enough value per trinket to see a net gain in value on that purchase (for example 2C + 2U + 1R + 1E for the ring trade might require that each legendary ring ought to be worth at least 18%, so maybe we call it 25% for a profit of +7 value)

859 Posts
Link to post - Posted July 2nd 2017 at 2:23 AM
Andreas
Muljo, the amount of time you have spent for writing all this done is impressive. Especially given the amounts of thoughts the initial post likely was spent for.

Agree with your analysis. On to your suggestions:

Regarding the talent: Naturally, this would favour more veteran players. And I would wonder how much worth an increase for these types of players really is.

Regarding the crafting option: Please don't add Legendary trinkets, here. Legendary is associated with gear and should stay there. The 'legendary' part of legendary gear - for me at least - is the fact that there is a secondary bonus which can be upgraded. I hardly think this is the way to go for trinkets.
Also, you want to mix that upgrade? That's pretty complex. I am not sure its design could easily be followed by all players.

2 Posts
Link to post - Posted July 3rd 2017 at 3:45 AM
Last Edited July 3rd 2017 at 3:51 AM
CountBasic
Thank You Muljo for that incredibly complex answer to my (yes Andreas) admittedly simple muse and a desire for more epic trinkets.
Of course they could just increase the drop rate slightly but where's the fun in that?
I just thought an option to upgrade DPS or Gold could be fun gameplay.
And I only intended a potential u/g from rare to epic...like I said, just an idle desire to get a way to make epic trinkets

And I agree that epic is as far as trinkets need to go...Legendary would be silly IMO

Thank you for your answers

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted July 3rd 2017 at 1:05 PM
Animenut
"where's the fun in that?" In as respectful a way as I can possibly put this, crafting trinkets would not be fun. Just flat-out, it doesn't lend itself to feeling rewarding.

One aspect of engaging, fun, rewarding gameplay is the balance between quantity and quality. If "a thing" is able to be farmed in enormous qualities, it loses value due to it's novelty being neutered. Trinkets are designed as an almost secondary, pseudo-passively-stacking buff that just naturally builds quantity over the normal course of gameplay. A single trinket is worthless, but ENORMOUS amounts of that trinket make a cumulative difference. In order for crafting trinkets (even just turning rares into epics) to have any kind of worthwhile effects, they'd have to be crafted/converted in ridiculous mass amounts, and therefor each craft/conversion would lose novelty to the player as they are done in such large quantities for such little ultimate gain.

Secondly is the cost of crafting/converting. If the crafting/converting used materials from gear crafting, then it would be a waste, as even a small cost to craft epic trinkets would cumulatively add up to way more materials than could be justified for the minimal difference it would make on your stats, especially compared to using those materials toward just going up a single legendary gear level. It is objectively better to save materials for legendary levels, meaning that using materials for epic trinkets would not just be borderline-useless, but outright HARMFUL to the player's game by now being out that many materials. A unique material system for trinkets could be created, but then that's an entirely new, extra feature for the devs to code into the game for something that ultimately make a worthwhile difference for the effort it would take to apply.

If trinkets were able to be converted into epic trinkets, then it would make all non-epic trinkets entirely moot. Every trinket you'd ever get would automatically me converted to epic since there would be NO reason not to. In that case, it would make more sense to just remove common/uncommon/rare trinkets entirely and just have epics drop from all chests at a lower rate since they are the only types that would drop. Trinkets are different from gear because trinkets affect the entire account, where gear (typically) only affects a single crusader. Spending currency to upgrade a crusader's gear affects only that crusader, and only if it happens to be in the formation. Upgrading trinkets has no tradeoff. They are just universal, absolute, permanent buffs which might sound like "Oooh, more power!" to the player, but it isn't balanced game design.
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