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Mechanics: Encouraging Level Diversity

95 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 17th 2017 at 7:21 PM
Last Edited January 17th 2017 at 7:22 PM
Viktyr Gehrig
While there is some discussion over whether it's better to focus on one DPS crusader or two, there is mechanically no reason to level any crusader except DPS and Tanks beyond the level of their highest useful upgrade. The idol rewards encourage you to level your lower-level characters, but only right before resetting.

My proposal is intended to mix that up a little.

Proposal:

Replace each Crusader's standard level 200 upgrade with one that reflects their role in the formation, based upon their mission tags.

At level 200 and each 25 levels thereafter, crusaders receive the following benefits according to their tags. Crusaders with 2 of these tags receive 80% of this benefit and Crusaders with 3 of these tags receive 60% of this benefit.

DPS: Multiply the Crusader's DPS by 400%.
Support: Increase global DPS by 10%.
Tank: Increase the Crusader's max health by 10 hit points.
Healer: Increase every Crusader's max health by 5 hit points.
Gold: Increase gold find by 5%
Click: Multiply click damage by 400% and increase critical multiplier by 5% (additive)

As a unique case, I would propose giving Mindy the Mime all five tags at 50% efficacy. Can't think of anyone else that would have more than 3.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 17th 2017 at 7:36 PM
Teschio
While I agree with a need to have different mechanics than just the "x4 every 25 levels" thing, and I also think we should take a hard look at EPs and XPs for non-DPSers, all of these suggestions also require a rebalancing of difficulty (namely, how monster damage and HP increase with levels). Without such a change, the game will most definitely become too easy.

95 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 17th 2017 at 8:01 PM
Viktyr Gehrig
I agree with EP, and would have made a similar suggestion before I heard so much about the upcoming crafting system-- I don't want to make any proposals about mechanics that are *already* changing.

And yeah, this does fundamentally change the game's balance; that's the point of it. But I don't think it makes the game necessarily easier, as any gold you spend leveling Crusaders other than your main DPS is gold you're not spending on your main DPS. This proposal actually reduces the efficiency of any DPS Crusader with more than one tag.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 18th 2017 at 5:11 AM
Last Edited January 18th 2017 at 5:12 AM
Teschio
Since gold increases exponentially, at some point leveling all crusaders instead of only your main DPSer becomes almost irrelevant. I often just level them all because I can't be bothered to click multiple times... when you can instakill enemies for the first 850 stages or so, it's not a big deal. Your proposal would mean a HUGE damage boost for me. With the formation I usually run to farm idols, I would have a 13,920% damage boost just from supporters by the end of the run (when everyone has 6k levels), assuming that the 10% this is ADDITIVE, of course (I don't want to say what the bonus would be if it were multiplicative like almost everything in this game. Actually, I do: it would be 4.155e59%!!!). My tank will have about 15% more HP (which is not a whole lot, compared to what supporters get) and my gold find would increase by 3,480% (again, assuming additive behaviour. Not that it matters, I don't even use gold crusaders like Panda or Robosanta in farming runs anymore because I'm capped anyway, and gold becomes irrelevant).

As you can see, a rebalance would be ABSOLUTELY needed with these changes.

95 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 18th 2017 at 8:51 AM
Viktyr Gehrig
Okay, yeah, that's a bit more profound of an effect than I was thinking of.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 19th 2017 at 3:52 PM
Azamagon
I like the train of thought here (and for Teschio bringing the mathematical sanity checks).

I was thinking similar, but slightly simpler, trying to fix the EP and "200"-ability issues in one go:

When you level your "200"-ability thing, the Crusader gets 2 things:
1) The current already existing "DPS x4 multiplier"-thingie.
2) The Crusader also grants X% All-DPS, based on your amount of EP (counting all EPs the Crusader has, including seat-shared EPs, so talents like "Sharing is Caring" is an extra useful talent to make event Crusaders be able to catch up more easily in this bonus' regard. Because with that talent maxed, all Crusaders in the same seat's "200"-ability provides the same all-dps boost)

What the bonus-ratio would be, I dunno. Like 0,1% all-dps per EP?
Teschio, you are probably the most dedicated and well-farmed CotLI-player I know of, how (in)sane would that ratio be?

As for XP, I honestly find it generally fine as is, except for one thing: It vastly reduces the adaptability in terms of what DPS Crusader you can use. You pick one, go to bed, well, then you can't adapt in that run when you continue next day (some missions requires adapting your DPSers, like those with randomly "sleeping" seats etc).

So, why not make XP a team-thing, rather than an individual boost? That way, you can swap DPSers a bit more easily, if need be, without worrying about any XP-issues.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 19th 2017 at 4:35 PM
Teschio
About XP, the whole idea is that you have to focus on a specific crusader, instead of swapping in the best one in any given moment. It takes planning, and I support that.

For EPs and 200-level abilities (and XPs), I'd really like them to boost formation abilities. All crusaders have those, and they are specifically identified in the code (because in certain objectives they can get disabled). The only thing to decide is the actual amount that gets boosted, which can also vary between different crusaders. Generally I'd do something like +0.1% per EP, so that with 1000 EPs the effect of an ability is doubled (and it would have diminishing returns as well). Most of the crusaders that I can use as viable DPSers have around 3k EPs (but I do have more than 10k unopened silver chests, so the number should be higher), so formation abilities would be about 4 times stronger (this doens't include a similar effect from levels or XPs, however). Of course, this requires a rebalancing of monster scaling... thinking of incresing our DPS/gold in such a drastic way without making the game harder as you progress is insane.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 21st 2017 at 8:23 AM
Azamagon
@Techio
XP - Well, I know the intention. I just don't agreed with it :P But XP bothers me less than EPs being useless on supports, because XPs aren't permanent anyway.

EP - I know you'd like them to boost formation abilities. But I just can't see that happen for a few reasons:

1) Balance issues - For Gold and DPS-boosting abilities, it could possibly work, yes. But how would you make it work on someone like Dark Gryphon? It would need to boost the formation ability (Under My Wing) in a different way than its regular effect, so maybe increasing the affected units' health instead? It gets needlessly complicated. Which leads me to my second point...

2) Complexity - The more complex an idea is, the less iikely it is to happen. Think about this; EVERY single formation ability would have to be looked at carefully in regards to how it interacts with EPs to ensure that EPs won't break the ability at some point.
If you could do a streamlined implementation (like mine), it would be far more likely to happen.

3) Not all Crusaders have Formation abilities - Gold Panda for instance. She only has abilities surrounded by circles (passives) and a triangle (active ability), but no diamonds (formation abilities). While that can be ignored by letting her EPs simply also boost goldgain, I still wanted to point that out.

4) Not all Formation abilities are equal - You yourself have said that you are capped, so goldgiving Crusaders are unimportant to you now. Thus, Crusaders which grant gold-formation bonuses would be just as trivial to you as before. However, something you ALWAYS need more of, is DPS. Tieing EPs to both give SelfDPS and AllDPS is simply the most fair and easy thing to implement. Boring maybe, but still.

5) Gear - A possible issue is that the EP-bonus could reduce the need for gear, and that is if the bonuses are additive to the effects of what the gear provides. Although, that is a lesser concern (especially considering that almost everything is multiplicative in CotLI anyway).

95 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 21st 2017 at 10:12 AM
Viktyr Gehrig
Honestly, I think the best solution for EP would be for each EP to grant a percentage bonus to the Crusader's gear bonuses, excluding gear which grants damage or cooldown reduction. Crusaders which have gear that grants those bonuses just... only get EP bonuses to the other two pieces of gear.

Which means that EPs are useful for every Crusader, EP bonuses depend on having better gear, and EPs enhance the function of Crusaders within their role.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 21st 2017 at 7:23 PM
Teschio
@ Azamagon:

1) yes, for a crusader like Gryphon it would boost a unit's health. He already has a piece of gear that does that...

2) The only formation abilities that could cause problems are the ones that reduce something (for which the reduction could go past 100%). Gryphon comes to mind, but nothing else. Easily avoidable by giving a related bonus (for gryphon, health to these in front of him)
3) True. It would be a gold boost in the case of Panda (those without formation abilities are very few... Sal, for example which could get a DPS boost exactly like he does now)
4) Irrelevant. Yes, all abilities are not equals, but all crusaders are different too. Most are, at some point of other of the game, viable. Saying that their abilities are different is a bit of a tautology, but it does not change the validity of the suggestion. And personally, I'd like to think a talent that removes or increases the cap is very close, making gold crusaders once more very useful
5)EPs would multiply with gear (almost everything is multiplicative in this game, as you pointed out), so I really don't see the problem here...

@ Viktyr: I like the idea, I'd need to think a bit more about it, but it may have potential...

46 Posts
Link to post - Posted January 23rd 2017 at 8:04 PM
Muljo Stpho
The idea has been around (and I know the devs are aware that the idea has been around) for a long time that the perks of EP (and XP and level 200 abilities) could stand to be looked at and reworked. It really is kind of hard to speculate about what would be reasonable and propose new ideas without first seeing what the game will be like after the addition of crafting and legendary gear though. We've only seen an example of 1 legendary and 1 golden legendary but it already looks like the change in crusader strengths and crusader synergy is going to be very significant. (Huge boosts in the existing bonuses plus being able to level up brand new bonuses (Bush Whacker suddenly becoming DPS support for robot formations was one of the examples) on top of that.)

I've posted some thoughts on this before (maybe not here, but on Steam at least and maybe also on Reddit or Kongregate) and one of my thoughts has been having the idea about adding some sort of EP based bonus onto gear (supporting the crusader's intended role by enhancing the bonuses granted by their gear). Legendary could possibly push that idea off the table. That leaves the idea to scale up specific abilities and the idea to limit the changes to only affect what EP does directly.

Random thought I came up with while reading this topic. Spitballing an idea for Dark Gryphon... Looking at three of her abilities here: Brave Bonk, 100% self DPS. Chivalrous Cuff, 100% self DPS. Courageous Chop, 100% self DPS. Ummm... On a character whose intended role is 2 different forms of support (protection provided with Under My Wing + 2 of her gear items, global DPS buffing provided by Heart Brimming Bravery + 1 of her gear items), what good are these three self DPS abilities doing for her?

My random idea is that I propose removing one of her self DPS abilities and replacing it with something like "Spiked Wing Guards, when targets protected by Under My Wing take damage an energy spike deals X% damage for every Y EP that Dark Gryphon has". Including of course some sort of cap on the maximum amount of damage and/or a cooldown before another spike can be triggered. X and Y would be chosen carefully to hit whatever the devs feel would be an appropriate balance.

Actually... I basically just gave her an ability comparable to Montana's gun, Veronica's bow, and Greyskull's handcannon except with EP based damage instead of a fixed rate (and triggered in response to damage received instead of just happening every few seconds regardless)...

Anyway, basically the thought is that they would just sidestep the concerns about what EP would do if it scaled the protection and health benefits on Under My Wing by just leaving those benefits as they are and applying the EP to something else instead. (And this new thing would be its own separate formation ability, so the gear that enhances Under My Wing would not affect spike damage.)

95 Posts
Link to post - Posted February 13th 2017 at 9:37 AM
Viktyr Gehrig
Here's a simpler and easier to balance idea:

In addition to the standard benefits of the level 200 upgrade, each Crusader gets a unique kicker ability on that upgrade that also increases with every 25 levels, sort of like the unique kickers on legendary gear.
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