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Codename Entertainment
Experience Rework

37 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 11th 2015 at 10:16 AM
Lloyd_Majere
After playing for quite a while, I think I have a good grasp of the pros and cons of the XP system. I think that it is a good system for new players to get the bonus they need to pass level 100, especially since their first and second runs they will be exploring the game for several hours. I also think it's a good balance for the early reset runs, maybe up til the 10th run. XP acts like this bar you should try to avoid by resetting in under 5 hours, but should you go past it, you are basically guaranteed an instant reset due to the XP boost. Finally, once you get a reset time of an hour and enter the endgame, XP gives quite a bit of a boost to your Idol-boosted Crusaders. All of this makes a good balance to the game.

However, my major problem is that, if you use XP too much, you defeat the purpose of formation editing. I went away for a whole weekend, and came back to 10+ XP on my active 10. I decided to push to level 200, my current campaign. But I soon realized, I was STUCK with those 10. I couldn't use any of the other Crusaders, because without that XP boost, they were trash in comparison. My buddies wanted me to try two different formations, but my DPS was only around 10%-20% of my XP party, so I couldn't provide accurate results.

It's quite possible that those formations are much better for me, but I simply cannot edit my formation at all. I have no way of testing whether a formation is "better" because the XP is skewing my DPS readout. And I can't test this early game, because of how the game shifts once you start buying the 25-level x4 boosts. Emo sucks until that point, but that point takes too long to reach. I've heard that Emo and Hermit get massive potential, but I wouldn't know because my other characters tend to have 3 XP by the time I can get accurate numbers.

I think that ultimately, XP is hurting this game's core mechanic. If someone asks our chat for a good formation, we may not be able to advise properly if they are 10 hours into their run. Our suggestions will be better, but that person may not understand and may stick with a bad formation because the numbers say differently. Similarly, XP is encouraging you to know your endgame formation from the beginning and just use that straight until the end. The 5-hour timeframe is too much to replicate (I'm not going away for another weekend on this run), so you better make sure your boost goes to the right Crusaders!

Sure, it can be argued that I shouldn't have gone away for a weekend, but I still wouldn't have known to test a new formation beyond the five-hour mark. Why would I, if my formation works quite well up to the switching point? I think many others do the same, which makes it so that the "unique formation mechanic" isn't being used uniquely at all. The fact that XP can outmatch epic equips is more proof that XP needs to be reworked.

I don't have a perfect solution, this is just highlighting a problem. I would think that adjusting the time and value of XP would be best. For example change it to a 50% boost and scale it from 1 hour with 30 minute increases: You'd have 50% at +1h, 100% at +1.5h (2.5 total), 150% at +2h (4.5 total)... You'd get to 400% at 21.5 hours, which overlaps pretty close with what we have now, and it would get farther and harder to increase after that. This would create a pseudo-cap on XP, making it less overwhelming, and also make it easier to bring in unused Crusaders. It's a bit of a nerf with these numbers, so some adjustments can be made... but right now, I think it does create a problem in this game.

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 11th 2015 at 1:16 PM
Elusion
Well, as it is now, it's fine, maybe less time between gaining XP.

If this is an issue for you while aiming for 200 then you are not ready for 200 yet.

5 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 11th 2015 at 2:14 PM
Bashe
My understanding:
Part of the strategy for formations is balancing early game speed with potential late game gains. I try something, decide to keep the characters, and get their xp up in preparation for later in the game. That is part of the strategy that makes the game different from every other idle. If not you just freely always use the accepted "best" loadout with small exceptions for if you got lucky with gear. I find investing in a strategy and coming back 5 - 10 hours later after school or sleeping and seeing it work rewarding. If it turns out terrible, I reset get some idols and try something else.

If you can get to the later stages in under 5 hours anyways, it's easy enough to try something different and then let that sit overnight or something.
XP helps reward people that aren't using the clicker, and aren't playing and spending constantly keeping their gold/damage ratios constantly optimized. Otherwise they will likely just hit a wall where theres no point continuing playing the game since they barely make any progress. Especially with how rubies are right now.

37 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 11th 2015 at 4:02 PM
Lloyd_Majere
@Elusion, that has nothing to do with my point. I didn't say I had any trouble reaching 200 or otherwise, that was merely context. My point was that XP gains ruin the idea of switching your formation:

1. If you know for a fact that X formation is the best, you will only ever use those 10 in that formation from early to late game, because XP is only valuable on them.
2. If you only use 10 people, your remaining 10 get 0 XP, and thus eventually become insignificant and worthless when switched in.
3. If you wanted to test new formations, because you got new equips on unused characters or wanted to see a new strategy, you would be unable to because your "best formation" has the XP. If you don't use Emo or Hermit from the beginning, they lack the XP to be functionable at the end.
4. There's no way to test the endgame Crusader potential without spending the time it takes to gain XP. I can't test a level 900 Emo or Hermit without at least putting 10 hours in, but I also don't want to waste time if that test ends poorly. So I end up using the same formation infinitely.

Overall, I think this is something this game should avoid. What good is claiming you have a "unique formation mechanic" if it just defaults to "here, use this set and NEVER CHANGE IT" ?? I think XP promotes this, and that rubs me the wrong way. Again, XP becomes more powerful than a full set of epic equipment - XP literally decides your formation for you if you give it enough time. That's a pretty clear problem to me.

[And for emphasis, I had no problem getting to 200. But I wanted to play around with my formation late-game, once I had all my characters above level 700. I simply found out I couldn't do so, because 10 of my characters lacked a 1000% boost - the DPS comparison was waaay off]

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 11th 2015 at 4:28 PM
Elusion
If it takes you 50 hours to reach 200, then yes you struggled. You are clearly needing to reset more often to gain more idols/chests so you can do it faster.

I think this thread is nonsense tbh. You're saying that because you use this formation for 50 hours, you can't test other formations during this run?

Just bloody reset, compare builds, see if one works better, note the DPS...

Before you leave for the day, have a set formation you plan to use so they all gain XP and this way only the Crusaders you use will be stronger.

37 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 11th 2015 at 4:42 PM
Last Edited August 11th 2015 at 4:48 PM
Lloyd_Majere
What part of "I went away for the weekend, so I figured I might as well finish a campaign" do you not get? You're insulting me at this point, and it's getting irritating. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

I was spending the majority of my days Idol-grinding, resetting every hour, in the idea that the Idol Upgrade system would be implemented last Friday. It was not, so I did one last reset, unlocked my desired formation, and turned the game off. I did not have good internet access again until late Sunday night. What part of that says I NEEDED that time to reach 200? It was a matter of practicality, not of necessity. And it is NOT THE POINT of my thread.

Yes, I'm saying that no matter what, an Emo or Hermit build is absolutely worse than a 10 XP build that doesn't use them. The Emo build required me to use three characters that didn't have any XP (Emo, Phoenix, Sal), so my DPS went down to a TENTH of what it was. I didn't use Hermit either, so I lost two XP people, and went down to a fifth. How, exactly, am I supposed to compare these, without getting the same XP levels on these unused characters? How am I supposed to "leave for the day with the formation I plan to use" if I don't know what formation that would be?!?

You've made your point; you disagree with my logic. Now stop assuming things about me that have nothing to do with the logic itself. Stop saying to do things like "reset and then compare" when I've already said "I wanted to play around with my formation late-game, once I had all my characters above level 700" and "I can't test a level 900 Emo or Hermit without at least putting 10 hours in, but I also don't want to waste time if that test ends poorly." You can think this thread is nonsense. I don't, and I think it might have value to a Dev who reads it. If you're not going to listen and address the point in question, and instead just attack my surrounding context, I can't have this discussion with you.
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