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Codename Entertainment
Whackables in MP Bug

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 6th 2015 at 4:10 PM
Andaho
This is a bug I remember being reported back in alpha, and it's annoying it's never been fixed...

If a player runs ahead (like when others are typing), and runs into the next part of a level (where there is usually a short loading pause)... If they run ahead and whack stuff, it appears unwhacked for all the other players, and unable to whack them.

The other way it happens is if someone on a fast PC whacks as fast as they can, people on a slower PC end up seeing them 'running on the spot' into a whackable, and all future whackables they hit are unwhackable for the other players.

With the higher tier missions having decent drop rates from whackables, it's become an important issue...

I was thinking of posting a "Good MP Etiquette" guide post... But it would be really good if it could just be fixed instead of just worked-around by the players...

It's very frustrating for players to be unable to whack stuff due to a bug, especially when in a high-tier mission.

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 24th 2015 at 2:25 PM
Last Edited April 24th 2015 at 2:32 PM
Andaho
BUMP...

I understand that locating the problem with a sync issue might be difficult...

If it's too hard/too much work to find the cause/fix, then maybe you could consider making it that whackables be like chests? - e.g. each player has to whack them themselves.

With the recent MP updates, there's not much to go on by the changelog... but I wondered if it might have been fixed... but no, it's just as bad as it always was...

Although, the ping might diagnose the problem easier... I think it happens when someone has a ping that spikes in to the red... although, the ping-spike isn't a connectivity issue, it's a game loading-lag issue...

I have a rock solid internet connection, and if I join any random FPS game, I get solid pings to a game server of around 10-15ms... here my ping jumps all over the place from just under 100, to occasional spikes in the red.

I've tested using http-ping (http://www.coretechnologies.com/products/http-ping/), having it running in the background, and I get constant ping replies from it, while my in-game ping is jumping all over the place.

-----

EDIT/UPDATE: The reason I decided to start complaining about this, and why I'm bumping it again, is because twice now, someone in-game has said:
"COOL! just found an epic!"
- "where was it?"
- "In the whackables"
And both times, it just happens to be in one of the games where I've had a few whackables that haven't been whackable :S

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 24th 2015 at 4:39 PM
Last Edited April 24th 2015 at 4:40 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Andaho,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Epic items really shouldn't be winnable in breakables to start with, so we will probably adjust the loot on those to not scale up equipment wins the same way battles do in Heroic instances.

The issue with not seeing someone break them is definitely a bug and is not a latency related issue.

While I was aware it was happening it has had a super low priority fix level, as it is annoying, but doesn't cause any real harm. I can see about getting it looked at.

Ping is not necessarily an indicator of the quality or speed of your internet connection. It is an indication of the time it takes to get to a destination server and back. Connections over the internet are NOT direct, they route from server to server to get to the destination. For example it takes 13 hops for me to get from my work computer here to the play server.

http://tools.pingdom.com/ping/?target=shardsps1.djartsgames.ca&o=1&save=true

Your in game ping is also effected by how long it takes the game to update, if you are running at 30fps then each frame takes 33ms to run and as such that time gets added into your ping - not precisely a network ping, but it does represent how long it is taking you to respond to messages. If you are running slow at say 20fps then that adds 50ms... Again not precise, but it does indicate who might be causing any latency issues.

Regardless, You are in the UK (correct?), and our servers are in the US, so getting rock solid pings to game servers that are within 100 miles of you (assumption) is not indicative of how fast you should expect to connect to servers that are an ocean away...

-David

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 25th 2015 at 3:26 AM
Last Edited April 25th 2015 at 6:40 AM
Andaho
Thanks for the reply, David.

If getting epic items from whackables is unintended, please also consider putting that on a low-priority fix level also... because most people I know have got their epic speed rings from whackables... while I and many others haven't found one yet! - In the interests of being fair, I (and many others, I'm sure) want to get an epic speed ring from a whackable too before you nerf it :S

In regards to the ping, yes, I already know what you have described above (but an interesting read for anyone else who wants to learn more)... "not seeing someone break them is definitely a bug and is not a latency related issue" - so it's not a problem related to not-being-in-sync with the player that is whacking? :S - because I assumed it would be caused by someone losing packets OR receiving packets in the wrong order (and going out-of-sync) during 'game-ping' spikes? (calling them 'game-ping' spikes because it's not a straight-forward ping due to the game rarely running at a constant framerate, due to the way it loads content on-the-fly).

Please don't think that I'm questioning or criticizing your knowledge... I'm just trying to help, using my knowledge and experience as a self-taught IT techie (who is not in work, out of choice) holding an MCP and CCNA (I didn't bother going for the MCSA/MCSE because I am not interested in managing MS servers), by suggesting where I think the problem may be (of course, without having access to the system, and trying to diagnose the problem from a user-experience).

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 25th 2015 at 9:36 AM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Andaho,

The game communicates using websockets over TCP. The TCP layer guarantees that packets arrive in order (packets are numbered, and the TCP layer knows which was the last good received number). TCP also guarantees delivery. So if a packet is detected as dropped - if a packet number higher than expected is received - it will re-request starting at the last good packet number. If it cannot get the missing packets it will eventually time-out and close the connection.

There is lots of info online about how TCP works, but long story short is packets are delivered in order and without any missing OR the connection is closed with an error.

What I think is happening with the breakables is a timing issue with the animations or perhaps a pathing issue. If the player on the remote client cannot get to the barrel, or is doing another animation when the message to break the barrel comes in and we aren't properly accounting for those cases it could result in the issue described.

-David

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 25th 2015 at 10:47 AM
Last Edited April 25th 2015 at 10:52 AM
Andaho
I wasn't suggesting that it was anything to do with the network protocol losing the packets or receiving them in the wrong order, but that perhaps that the flash client was not handling them correctly due to the lag spikes in the game caused by loading-on-the-fly (or that perhaps for a seamless user experience, and to prevent other players being effected by one player's lag, you may have coded the client to ignore late packets). I had hoped to communicate that I am a networking professional and that I fully understand how these things work (although I do not claim that I know-it-all), but with your layman's response suggesting that I know nothing about websockets or TCP, it's obvious that I am wasting my time and your time by reporting problems and trying to help identify where the problem is.

It seems that I am only getting myself wound up and annoyed when posting/reading in these forums recently, when all I am trying to do is help...

From the replies I have received recently, I imagine that you consider me to be a nuisance... So rather than getting myself annoyed to the point of posting things I would regret, and getting myself banned, I will restrain myself from reporting bugs or posting on the forum again.

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 25th 2015 at 1:21 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Andaho,

I always enjoy discussing how the games work, most players only care that it does work, not how it works. So I definitely don't find it a nuisance. But it is always hard to convey tone in text, we almost always end up reading it the way we think it is being said, or how we are worried it is being said.

When discussing technical aspects I always default to speaking as though the person I am speaking with doesn't have the specific knowledge on the subject. Players don't often have the knowledge required - heck many fellow developers don't have the knowledge because they specialized in other areas, or because they have forgotten the details of a class they took 10 years ago... I will be honest with you, I don't know what an MCP or CCNA is so I don't know what that says you should or should not have experience with.

To be fair, you did not specify at what level you thought the issue was occurring, (transport or application). You also mentioned the possibility of messages arriving out of order. If we were using UDP that would be a possibility in game, but we are using TCP so that could only happen at the transport layer. Because you didn't specify which protocol you though we were using I thought I would just explain what we were using and why the messages wouldn't arrive out of order. Making no assumptions about your level of knowledge.

-David

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted April 27th 2015 at 7:47 AM
Andaho
Sorry.

Yes you are correct, I was indeed reading it in the wrong tone, and you are right that I didn't explain very clearly - I was doing the exact opposite, by assuming your in-depth-level of knowledge, and I was getting frustrated at such simplified answers that explained where the problem wasn't, and the basics of how internet protocols work.

I don't know why, but I only like to report bugs when I have a rough idea of what might be causing it.

I accept that it's a low-priority issue, and I'm glad that you are aware of it being a problem. It's something that happens multiple times a day, unless the team you are playing with know about it, and how to avoid it happening.

It's one of those tiny annoyances that is so common that you ignore it at first, but it builds up and up until it really starts to annoy you! - I had brought that frustration to this thread.
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