> And before anyone in the thread says something like "You're being stubborn" or "This is what you're doing wrong" or whatever, let me remind you guys...

> I'M THE ONE DOING THE WORK HERE!!!!!!

I was going to go through more piecemail, but quite honestly, this statement infuriates me. WE HAVE DONE THE WORK. We have put in hundreds of hours in testing over the last three weeks ALONE, and let me remind you again that Jaio has been superior to Wrena for a lot longer than that. Just because you refuse to review the work in Discord where we've got all of the DPS comparisons set up with explanations, sorted by pins and useful searches, does not mean we have not put in the work. We have done a hell of a lot more than you have.

We've shown you that the DPS forms for Jaiolong are stronger than Wrena, and you've admitted that. Based on your response to bungobounce, that 1000+ areas an hour that most of us are seeing (IN OUR JAIO FORMS) is much faster than what you're seeing with your formations. If our formation is faster than yours, and it's stronger than yours, then claiming yours is still better is either just stubbornness or ego.

> setting up the Kris/Robo storage, swapping back to speed formation

Which speed formation? The one grag linked doesn't have RoboRabbit in it, which means you had to have either made your own (and where's the screenshot if so) or dropped someone in that formation in order to add in RoboRabbit. I figured you would have learned this from the Karen/Billy thing, but you can't just take our formations and sub in random crusaders. Every crusader in our formation is carefully chosen and placed, and introducing a new one requires significant rearrangement, if not subbing out entire other groups of crusaders.

> Ana. She's in the speed formation, but there are a few caveats. Firstly, she's ONLY in the speed formation.

For some reason you don't seem to understand the most important thing we've been telling you up until this point. Jaio is stronger than Wrena. You're using different crusaders in your Wrena formation because your Wrena formation isn't ideal either. Ana could easily be placed into a Jaio form as well if you were to do an overnight run, though it's not like it matters because the amount of chests we get at our speeds of 1k+ areas an hour still means we're getting more chests total than you're getting by running Ana full time, even if we choose not to use her in an overnight run.

> I've done my part despite how awful I've felt all week because of it. I've lost progression in the dungeon because of this. I've got less chests and exp because of these awful suggestions.

Is there any particular reason you're so obsessed with the XP? We've got people in the Discord over halfway done with the pass (which is level 21, by the way) using our techniques. Those people aren't even focusing on XP, they're doing idol runs. Any way you slice it, you're doing something inefficiently.

And instead of reaching out for help (basically all you've done in this thread is told us we're wrong, with us having to provide these forms as evidence to the contrary), you've stated that you'd literally rather die than simply going into a chat client and reading existing messages, or simply asking us here: Hey, you're getting more speed, here's what I'm doing, how can I improve it?

Honestly, props to gragatrim who continues to try to help you, despite all evidence pointing to the fact that you simply don't want help. I for one am more here for the others who may be reading this thread to make sure that at least they get good advice and listen to it.

> You hopped in, asserted that you were correct, and never attempted to test the other side's proposal.

https://discord.gg/P629C2b

The tests are all here. They were done months ago. Why would I retest something that's already been proven to be true, when I could be spending my time to improve on what we already know? Because a single person refuses to look at the testing we've already done, I should take hours to redo it? Besides the fact that it's redundant work, why would I trust you to review it now, when you won't review the existing tests?

> I said that ONE formation was faster and ANOTHER formation was stronger, but neither managed to be both at once.

And my point is we're making it to area 8k+ with our speed shell formations. Full speed, full DPS, all at once. Whether or not your tests can do it are irrelevant, because we're doing it just fine.

> relies on a gimmick that doesn't perform well

The Kris/RR strategy works perfectly fine, as evidenced by the fact that people with less than 1e16 idols and under 5 million mats are still reporting the same times and areas we're telling you.

> then swap to the pure DPS formation which is horrifically slow without swapping out ANY crusaders for some extra speed whatsoever because

No, you use the speed formation designed for Kris/RR. (For example, http://prntscr.com/tk0ig4 is a speed shell for Under Fire, or https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/721465032717762581/731963830472802434/unknown.png for Jungle Journey) Again, you lack the context because you refuse to join the area that actually HAS all of our tests, and you're simply getting it from us second-hand as you ask. We have specifically developed forms that are designed to maximize speed without any regard for DPS. The speed form Grag listed is what you'd use before the DPS/Kris transition, and a lot of people have dropped that out of their rotation entirely, choosing to go straight to the speed shell instead.

>So which is it? Don't swap ANYTHING, EVER, under ANY circumstances, or, from your own words, "you always have the option of the Kris/RR formation, which will allow you to hit your DPS cap with a single click per level while lasting much longer than a regular speed formation." despite the suggested speed formation NOT using Kris/RR? You contradict yourself.

My logic doesn't contradict anything. People should make swaps. You, specifically, should not be making swaps while you don't understand how the formations function to begin with. Understand how they work, then you can figure out how to improve them. Until then, you end up in situations where you decide Billy is an adequate substitute for Karen.

Also, I'd really like to know how grag suggesting one form means that I can't suggest a better one.

> If you're doing 1000 areas per hour and I'm guessing you can reach area 9000 (just to keep the numbers nice and clean), that's 9 hours

Last time I checked the first 3500 areas don't take 3.5 hours. I go to area 7.5-8k, Ana in the whole time, takes around 4 hours. Plenty of time for chest runs in the day even considering overnight runs and time at work. Chest runs also don't take 3.5 hours.


>You say "Try this." I reply "Okay. It didn't work." You reply "YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG". Or...your suggestion...didn't...work...? But that would require you admitting you were wrong. And what's that thing you tried to hold against me? If I tried your formation, it didn't work for me, and I get better results with my own formation, "then claiming yours is still better is either just stubbornness or ego."

The difference between your formations and mine is we have several people testing each others' theories in the Discord. They don't get to be "the best" until several people have verified it. We know they work because there are a lot of people they work for. You, meanwhile, are the only person they *aren't* working for. That's not ego, that's logic. If it works for everyone but a single person... well, I'm sure you're familiar with Occam's Razor?

> Well this must be awkward for you.

That doesn't look like you're asking for help. That looks a lot more like you saying "I don't believe you."

tl93, CNE(Erika) has said multiple times in the Reddit Q&A and the thursday live streams on twitch that they are going to modify the way idol buffs work so that they will work in the dungeon. It's just taking a bit of time since they needed some data to work off of so that they don't either make it much worse, or much better than the current situation.

EDIT: Just to confirm, none of the idol buffs work in the dungeon(since I realize I didn't actually say that above and that was what you were curious about).

----Tin section----

"Because a single person refuses to look at the testing we've already done, I should take hours to redo it?" Yes. I did. You CHOSE to comment in this thread. You CHOSE to put your opinion out to the one person who made the thread. You don't get to come in, spout your opinion to one person, then claim one person isn't enough to make you act. You didn't have to comment. Nobody forced you to. You made that decision on your own, then failed to comply with the basic rules of debate. I tested your suggestions, you did not test mine. I was going to say one more thing here, but reading ahead in your comment, I'm just gonna end up repeating the same thing again and again, sooo....

"Whether or not your tests can do it are irrelevant, because we're doing it just fine." If my tests are irrelevant, then why did you suggest anything at all? My success or failure would mean nothing, if they were irrelevant. Which means you'd have only commented to feel superior, not to help someone else.

"The Kris/RR strategy works perfectly fine, as evidenced by the fact that people with less than 1e16 idols and under 5 million mats are still reporting the same times and areas we're telling you." I gave you the numbers. Instead of trying to figure out why my numbers are different despite following the advice I was given to-the-letter, you just jump to "YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG" and "YOU ARE IRRELEVANT" instead of considering there might be another possibility: There's a factor that is nobody's fault that is causing the change. I actually figured out what that factor was a LOOOOONG time ago but have kept silent about it to give you the opportunity to show you're willing to consider non-demeaning possibilities, but so far, you've failed that test. I could tell you why I'm getting different speed results. Go figure, testing ALL the formations provided an answer. You'd know that if you bothered to actually test my debate instead of writing it off.

(The entire paragraph that begins with...) "No, you use the speed formation designed for Kris/RR." Soooooo...What you're saying is that you and Grag failed to properly explain what to do. I shouldn't have to join some group or read pre-made text to understand your point. If YOU can't explain it in YOUR own words, then why should I listen to YOUR advice?

"You, specifically, should not be making swaps while you don't understand how the formations function to begin with." (See above statement) When I am told to do something, I follow those instructions as gospel. If I failed to understand anything, it's because the explanations I was given were poor. Simply put, if I do what you tell me to do and I fail, YOU are at fault, not me.

"Last time I checked the first 3500 areas don't take 3.5 hours. I go to area 7.5-8k, Ana in the whole time, takes around 4 hours. Plenty of time for chest runs in the day even considering overnight runs and time at work. Chest runs also don't take 3.5 hours." I love you lol That was adorable. 1) I intentionally fudged those numbers to see if you'd take the bait and decide to EXCLUSIVELY attack the numbers and not the point being made. I was right. You did. 2) Earlier in this thread, I did calculations that included a proper time for sprints. Why would I suddenly mess it up there? 3) I added in the hypothetical "3 runs per day" despite never really doing something like that before. Why would I include "time dilation" to humor your side so much when that hasn't been a tactic I've used at any point before? I put that there to provide the math for 6-hour runs. You fell for the bait, man. Instead of actually focusing on the point being made, you zoned in on the irrelevant error. Plus, you specifically said "though it's not like it matters because the amount of chests we get at our speeds of 1k+ areas an hour still means we're getting more chests total than you're getting by running Ana full time", suggesting two things. 1) You don't use Ana full time. Yet in your latest post, you say "I go to area 7.5-8k, Ana in the whole time", now swapping your argument to include Ana. You're contradicting yourself again. 2) Referring to your 1k/hr clear speeds as being faster than my using Ana full time suggests that you somehow think that faster area clears amount to more chests than whole, extra, runs. Basically, your point was "Fast area clears mean more than using Ana full time", so I retaliated with "Here's the math proving that more runs in less time and using Ana makes a significant difference", and you replied with "Which is why I do more runs and use Ana." Make up your mind, or just admit I had a point, dude. This is sad.

"If it works for everyone but a single person... well, I'm sure you're familiar with Occam's Razor?" I am, but Occam's Razor isn't used to actually figure out an answer. It's a device of implication, not analyzation. It helps to narrow down the possibilities, not pinpoint an answer. "Thing A" holds true for everyone except this one person. First thought, the person is different somehow. Occam's Razor would suggest that the person is at fault, but not figure out how, why, or if that's even true. What is person doing differently? This is where the situation can take one of two routes. 1) The person is doing some aspect of "Thing A" differently than all others, causing the change. 2) The person is doing the same thing as others, but getting different results. If "A", then figure out how the method being employed is different than the other methods being used. If "B", then examine the circumstances affecting the person's method, not the method itself. Considering that I've said numerous times that I've followed the advice I was given EXACTLY (whether the advice was poor/incomplete or not), that lands us in scenario B. I'm using the same method, yet achieving different results, which means the method (and therefor, the person) is not to blame, but some other heretofore-unnoticed detail that affects me, specifically. You can use "It works for everyone but him" to point out that "him" is somehow different, but that DOESN'T actually tell you WHY "him" is different. Inciting Occam's Razor is just a cheap attempt to validate your unwillingness to consider other possibilities. Like I said, I already figured it out. I already know what the difference is. But if I tell you, I rob you of your chance to redeem yourself. Admittedly, it's also kind of funny watching you flounder about trying to cover yourself.

"That doesn't look like you're asking for help. That looks a lot more like you saying "I don't believe you." (See above) Sure lol Proving that you just can't admit when you're wrong.


----tl93 section----

At least you're being civil about it. The constant dropping of "BUT THERE ARE TESTS IN THE THOUSANDS THAT SUCH AND SUCH" doesn't really mean anything if they aren't helpful to me. It can be said over and over and over again that "This worked for many other people", but...I tested it myself and it reduced my payout considerably. If I'm saying "Help me" and the advice doesn't...help me...then the advice isn't fulfilling the request. I am not those thousands of other people. If the tests worked for them, then great. I am not them. I tested it and got different results. Should I intentionally reduce my own payout just to conform to what everyone else is doing? That's ridiculous. If it was better for me, then I'd use it. But it's not better for me, so I don't use it. "BUT THE TESTS-" don't apply to me. Clearly. I've tried following the advice here and every bit of advice had a negative effect on my payout. Those are the facts. Ignoring the facts because they don't suit the majority's narrative isn't helping me. I'm not being stubborn, I'm being honest. If I'm "doing something wrong", then it's because the advice I've been given told me to do the wrong thing. If the advice is accurate, but I'm still getting different results, then the advice doesn't help or apply to me, which brings us back to square one: What works for other isn't working for me, and I shouldn't be expected to kneecap myself just so that others can feel validated.


----Grag section----

I know. Similar to above, I skewed the numbers as a trap. When a debate goes on for long enough that the other side is showing signs of bias and defensiveness, I tend to start throwing traps in to catch them in their flaws. Basically an induced ad hominem. Before, if I got corrected, it affected nothing other than my ability to point out the bias. Here, though, the correction actually helps my side. The real numbers actually favor me even more because Ana's 40% buff is a much bigger percentage of 25% than it is of 50%. With a base of 50%, the numbers were 2700 and 4410, which is roughly 63% more. With a base of 25%, the numbers become 1350 and 3185, which is closer to 136% more. The lower the base number gets, the more of a difference Ana makes.

"I was also going to mention that your form for "speed" isn't the optimal one if you are doing kris/RR shenanigans, but TinDragon has already addressed that." And I already addressed this. You can go back into my previous post to look for that.

"Your math regarding how many areas you complete an hour is also incorrect as it wasn't factoring in sprinting, but TinDragon has also responded to that." Another trap, which I explained in Tin's section. Tin taking the bait, I expected, but you? Honestly, I thought you were better than that.

"Regarding the time it takes to clear areas, have you done deadly tales? You should be getting much faster times than you are posting if you have." Yes. I've long since done all the 11th objectives in every tier. Every talent maxed, etc. I've said this before. And my average clear time for areas cleared with 1 kill is around 4 seconds, as I said before.

"instead of being curious about what you might be doing incorrectly to not get the same results discord users are." I'm not doing anything incorrectly. I know exactly what's causing the different results (at least for area clear time) and it has nothing to do with me "doing something wrong". If you, or anyone else, actually tried testing my ideas, you might have figured it out already and bypassed all this arguing.

"Instead of being excited about the possibility of learning something new, you seem defensive, and that makes it very difficult to help." I HAVE learned something new. While testing your formations, I learned some tricks that I decided to carry over to my Wrena formation. Nothing major, but it did help slightly. I'm not "defensive", I'm telling you my experiences. You said "Try the thing", so I said "Okay. Tried the thing. Didn't work." and your reply was "You're being defensive." How is that defensive? Do you want me to LIE and tell you that your advice was a game-changer for me? I am telling you, that your advice, did not help. That is just the honest truth. From my perspective, YOU sound defensive because you (and others) are having a hard time conceptualizing the mere possibility that your advice didn't work. If your suggestions were objectively better and I could get way more idols and way more chests in way less time, why would I have ANY reason to defend against that? If it actually worked, it'd be GREAT! I jump at any opportunity to make great strides in this game. If all the truth did was benefit me, why would I lie and be defensive? That makes no sense.

Bungo, toxicity is exactly part of the reason I avoid Discord. It hosts people like you.

As you should feel. Glad we cleared that up.

If you spent as much time trying to learn and asking questions as you did laying traps, bait, fudging numbers, etc maybe we could get somewhere. Good luck on your 290k dungeon points or hope the levels get tweaked.