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Minor Class Balance Adjustement - Freeze & Overpower

50 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 3:29 AM
Jomale
David - Arena is the only area as a wizard i would excel in. Arena is a joke. Having to wait up until right before the server reset to guess who the top player is going to be and try to beat them to get #1 spot is exhausting, especially since that time for me is 3 am. I am a 61 year old woman who enjoys games..your games..and the only place I ever won rewards was for arena. I did so 3 times since this games went alpha and the speed boost gave me a competitive edge for the week. That didn't mean that I was unbeatable in arena, because I wasn't, but for a lower level wizard, it took a coordinated effort of timing and targeting to get to #1. It made arena competitive and fun.

I am not a statistician and rely on my guild members who are to keep me in line with what skills are best, etc. I can tell you what it FEELS like when playing. Right now i am helping lower level players level up by accompanying them on mps. Just when I know what I can carry should they be killed, stats are changed making it impossible to guess. It's not fun to have your team lose an mp because i have misjudged being able to beat something i could yesterday because a change was made an hour earlier that really changed my wizards ability to successfully beat the boss.

I am not adverse to change, but these nerfs are getting really old. And with the wizards character, unless you have VIP to allow you to respect during different battles within the same sp or mp, you really can't successfully complete higher Tiers. I look at the damage being done by same level warriors and ranges and the differences are staggering. Sure I can change my skills to get me to the same BR as they have, but then I am one shot killed. I have no comparable skill set to do what they can to get that many damage points. Now how is this fair? BUT I haven't complained about it at all because speed and freeze have been my saviour...well up until now.

I am one of your "ALL" players. I work a 8-10 hour a day job but manage to play 3-4 hours a day. I throw some money at the game to try to complete with the higher BR players. Frankly I feel as if my money has been wasted at this point.

17 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 3:50 AM
Gaidin
Essentially, what I'm seeing here is that these skills were adjusted because of the Arena. That is what keeps coming up in Mr. Whittaker's posts, and Mr. Stocks also only addressed the 1v1 scenario. And let's be real: Arena is really just 1v1 with some mosquitoes (companions) attempting to bite you while the player characters hack away at each other.

So, essentially, people were less than thrilled with how skills were working in the arena, and so the skills were adjusted. There are a couple of viewpoints I see this from. First, yeah, a wizard has a good setup for that. If phase procs, no damage is done to them on the first turn (though it won't be anyway 95% of the time, since furious/aim will be used by the opponent), and then freeze launches. Assuming that the wizard is faster to begin with, this can potentially seal the deal. However, let's look at a couple of other scenarios. Warrior is faster, and furious + Overpower/Impale goes off. If Phase didn't work, Wizard is dead. For another scenario, the Ranger Aims, then lets off a Rapid Reload. Now their speed is increased by the same amount freeze decreases speed, and they go again. If they are fighting a Wizard, the second turn probably isn't necessary, but either way, they get a speed increase to get in one more attack before the opponent, potentially sealing the deal there too. Really, the only class I'm seeing at a disadvantage here theoretically is the warrior class. They either kill you, or nuke stats. However, if they nuke stats, they can still be slowed by the wizard or hit again by the ranger. To me, this looks largely like a perpetual cycle of rock, paper, scissors.

That said, if it's that much of a problem in the arena specifically, maybe have a cap on how much stats can be raised/lowered in arena, and make it an arena thing. Then wizards can nuke speed where they need to, rangers can boost speed where they need to, and warriors can nuke attack/def where they need to, without being nerfed throughout the entire game because an extremely small, contained portion of it has potential balance issues on the extreme ends.

I'll note as a slight aside that these changes don't even really affect me. Until a couple of days ago, I never even used over 5 freeze, and with Jungle allowing more levels, I still run a 10 healthy, 14 int, 1 fireball, 10 phase, 10 freeze build. I'm not actually even hurt by this. I couldn't care less about arena outside of getting my daily task points from it and maybe companion exp when useful, and I don't run extreme "bossing builds" that would call for 11+ freeze either. I just don't really see it as fair that these skills were nerfed across the entire game because of imbalance in one specific area.

The idea of a skill getting better in all aspects as it has more points into it makes pretty good sense. That's how all of the other skills work, up to and beyond level 10. While they don't all have stat-altering effects, outside of significantly increasing damage, there wouldn't be a point in going above 10. I'm not sure if the furious multiplier helps make it worth it for Overpower, but I know that without a damage boost skill, it isn't worth it for wizards with freeze. Overall I guess it just feels a bit hasty to have knocked these skills down a peg or two (especially since OP was already cursed with a needless cooldown) just for the arena. I don't really have anything invested in any real outcomes from this discussion; I just wanted to provide a fuller picture if possible.

7 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 7:50 AM
Last Edited June 5th 2015 at 8:03 AM
Jalandar
Have to throw in few things about balance of this game in general. Wanted to create a topic, but it doesnt make sense, as only 1 topic in the whole forum seems active at a time. So here it goes.
For average player it is CLEARLY visible, that you guys have no idea what you are doing or maybe you have no time and manpower to do it, whatever. The whole game is collapsing and those of us who thought that maybe the jungle release will fix things can see, that it's actually opposite. Yes, the state of the game is even worse than it was before, and it was far from great.
Starting from, I don't know, lumber, for example. Do you even realize, that the existence of Lumber Mill building is not justified at all? It consumes so much lumber (lol), that before you can gain anything from it, you don't need lumber in the first place. Therefore it is better to not invest in it at all, period.
Let's go further. University.
Seriously? Every time i click upgrade skills there I feel humiliated. Surely, 3 attack or 5 health is better than nothing, but c'mon - it doesn't have ANY noticable effect at your character. It's so irrelevant, that I don't even bother to click it most of the days. Personally i thought you will revamp it with jungle, but boy, 6 months wasn't long enough. Too bad.
Companions. Ha, you stated, that it was unintended for them to become meatshields. Great. So you introduced items for them. Yeah, that's cool and all, but it DID NOT WORK. Not sure if u realize it, but companions are still nearly useless, and certainly nothing more than a short distraction for enemies. How could you balance jungle not knowing how poorly companions influence the fight? You had to know.. So, why it's so broken?
I can go on and on actually. Even with little things. With so many more missions in the jungle, there is definitely too low chance to get a quest of HoT or Arena in brotherhood. Hell, there's too low chance to get anything but single missions now. Of course, you didn't think of it.
The icon of guild bounty shows 3 paragon tokens (and that for me indicates, we will get 3 paragons for completing it). Do we get 3 tokens for completing it? NO! I felt so defeated, that i didn't even ticket it, otherwise I would have to put few tickets a day, just for this single issue. Also guild points are still broken ( some players often don't receive them) and even the BR ranking is broken as I write, but let's concentrate on the big picture.
I don't know who thought that it will be good idea to make jungle single and multiplayer missions harder that the previous content (while rewards are the same). Tell this guy it is thank to him, that people don't even bother to run new content after reaching endgame. Also, the whole new content.. The endgame is less rewarding than it was (everything is harder, partially thanks to the nerfs). So we've got new expansion, but instead of getting stronger, we got weaker. Cool, maybe we shall work toward decreasing our level, to be at lvl 1 at the engame. This is cRPG, we play to get stronger, to get this feeling of upgrade, and all you accomplished with the jungle is that I'm afraid to run tiers i previously smashed. Big thank you. And now another mistake. You cannot, just CANNOT balance PvP without looking at the impact it will have to PvE. You just can't do it.
As so many people noticed, you change one variable and call it a day, while at the same time you completely overlook the impact it will have on many other variables which will have effect of many other etc. That - in cRPG is the road to complete disaster. Now - to me - you look like a bunch of headless chickens, changing things randomly, more or less, in a false hope, that you will finally hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry but the nail is already bent beyond repair.

EDIT: Don't think these are ALL the problems you have with the game. It's just a few of MANY. They pile up on top of each other and kill the joy of playing. The shard quarry, arena, guilds are just the monuments of wasted potential. Sorry for the harsh words, but it seems you cannot see from where you sit, why there is less and less players each day.

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 9:10 AM
Farflier
"While we may have reduced it to 50% max, that 5% reduction from how it has been for months doesn't suddenly make them useless. I don't believe that it is reasonable to suggest that it does."
Eh, don't see where either Dansonage or myself suggested this. I agree with the nerf, as I said. Just not the timing, implementation, nor the rationale.

As many have already said, arena is probably the worst basis for balance changes.

1) Arena is the least significant aspect of the game for pretty much every player. The rewards are not worth the time/effort. If a player even uses their daily arena fights at all, it is usually because they got a BH task for it or they are completing their daily task. Nobody cares about arena rank as it bears no actual reflection of strength, skill, etc. The weekly #1 arena player is #1 solely because they were online right at Sunday's reset time. It is actually beneficial for most people to remain at a lower rank than they are capable of achieving, so they can more easily complete BH and daily arena tasks.

2) You are fighting AI in the arena, not the actual player. The AI very rarely uses skills effectively. If you are losing to the arena AI, it is probably not because of freeze or any other class skill. It is likely because you are much weaker than your opponent -- OR, a fluke battle in which the AI actually managed to use skills well. Players can even beat opponents much stronger than themselves, people with half my BR can and do beat me in arena constantly, when they are the attacker. I frequently look at arena after a a day or two of not touching it to see that I have been pushed back by up to 80-100 ranks. Granted it does not take long to get back to where I was, but this is direct evidence that at least that many players are capable of defeating me when the AI is playing my character. However, there is a point at which the difference in raw stats is just too large to overcome.

3) As mentioned by others, arena is vastly different from every other combat situation in the game. If skills need to be adjusted for arena balance, it really should be done entirely separately from the rest of the game. Different skill mechanics for PvP and PvE are completely reasonable and many games do exactly that.

4) Somebody will always be lamenting about how X class is overpowered, or how X class has Y advantage over Z class. If balance adjustments are to result from player tribulations in arena, it would be appropriate to scrutinize these complaints to a far greater degree than PvE reports/observations.

And.. yeah, whatever. Cheers.

7 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 9:27 AM
Steendorian
"Your battle speed / enemy battle speed is the ratio of turns you get.
For sake of argument pretend you are facing yourself in the arena, and you have a battle speed of 500 (pretty average for a level 45 character). So you have 500 and the you you are facing has 500 - lets call that you Alan for simplicity. So you have 500 and Alan has 500. You cast freeze on Alan, Alan now has 100 speed, an 80% reduction. The turn ratio is now 500 / 100 or 5 to 1. So you get to go 5 times before Alan does. So you go, 1, 2, 3, 4,5 ... now Alan gets to go 1! now you go again 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, now Alen 1! and the buff wears off and normal speed resumes!"

Great, now provide concrete examples that account for the recent changes in how speed actually works. Pick a random player leveled in the mid-30s, use their actual stats, gear, skills, buffs, and pit them against the HoT spiders on level 28 and troll on level 32. (Battles that are somewhat representative of the extremes we face in actual content, vs. the arena that is such an insignificant part of the game, especially for people who can never hope to compete near the top.)

After you've done that, pick some other random players and see how it works out for them. Don't stop with analyzing turns; look at everything---all the skills they have or could have by maxing them after a full respec. Clone everything on a test server and attempt to play the fight out. To go the extra mile, use a test server hosted on the internet, not on your LAN.

221 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 10:06 AM
Elharith
I deleted my posts previously, but Farflier convinced me I should repost them.

Post 1: This change takes both Freeze and OP below what they were for us at level 30. I think a 66% reduction target is much more realistic, seeing as how other abilities (such as MR) cap at around 66%. I think freeze and OP should cap at the same levels, not lower. And, I agree with Annie. Wizards have no damage that is competitive with other classes. Freeze gives us an ability that is valued by other classes. With it nerfed.... well. the tweaking is beyond old.

Post 2: Comparing Freeze to Furious/Aim is problematic because neither Furious nor Aim are attacks. They just buff an attack, and build rage/energy in order to use an attack. Freeze *is* an attack. And, the damage we do is nowhere comparable to the damage done by Warriors and Rangers who use Furious and Aim if you compare the Wizard/Warrior/Rangers by equivalent BR (i.e., each one with 150K BR). And, that is over the course of an entire battle with everyone taking their appropriate turns. So, your statement that we get five times the damage due to our use of freeze is less than satisfactory, because we don't. Further, Phase is the analogous skill of Furious/Aim, and is the only reason wizards stay alive in battle most of the time because we are notoriously glassy compared to other classes. Furious and Aim give additional *damage* so those classes can kill fast and stay alive. Phase gives additional *protection* so that we can *slowly* kill and stay alive. Nerfing freeze just means we will be more dead more often, and our damage score just keeps going down.

I do hope you realize you are ticking off more of your players than you are making happy with these continued nerfs? I'd recommend stop the tweaking and let us just play the game the way it is. Or, fix the things we have asked repeatedly to be fixed... like a friends' list that locks the computer up and occasionally crashes flash whenever you try to invite people to an MP. We don't need pictures of the players; all we need are their names. We've lost enough players already, and with every nerf and non-fix of continuing issues, we lose more.

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 10:28 AM
Farflier
I hope it is obvious that we are posting these things purely out of concern for the game's longevity. We do like the game, we want it to stick around. I realize a lot of our posts may come off as abrasive, but it is only a combination of frustration and concern at this point. Please keep this in mind.

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 10:40 AM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Everyone,

Arena was definitely not the only, or even the primary reason we reduced Freeze. Freeze was overpowered in both PvP and PvE. We are talking a lot about 1v1 battles or focus target battles such as boss battle because that is where Freeze is the most valuable. Some people are bringing up that Freeze is not useful in higher enemy count battles, this is true, but it has always been true, even at an 80% reduction there are much better ways to tackle multi-enemy battles.

Boss battles are the other primary concern with Freeze. It is hard to balance boss battles if one of the 3 classes can hit the boss with an 80% speed reduction, and the others cannot. That is a very serious balance issue that needed to be addressed. If a wizard in your group only needs to cast freeze every 5 to 10 turns to keep the boss down to 20%. A boss battle that should be challenging becomes very easy. A boss battle that is only possible with a wizard doing that would then be likewise impossible for the other classes.

We designed and tested (yes believe it or not we actually did dozens of runs through the new content) and balanced all of the campaign content and new mp dungeons using builds that were not 15 points in freeze. The one thing we didn't get too in our play through was the higher tier'd heroics. As many of you know we have made those heroics significantly easier in the past few days.

Hi Jomale,

I do appreciate its frustrating to stay on top of changes. We do try to avoid making these kind of changes if we can. We know it is always upsetting for players. We don't have any other class changes on the horizon, so with any luck things will settle down for a while after this.

Hi Jalandar,

We welcome feedback and suggestions, if you open a ticket and let us know that you feel a particular aspect isn't as good as it could be and have a suggestion we will always consider it.

We do have a small team here and so when fixing issues we focus on pain points for players. We have lots of avenues for improvement and continue to work them, nothing is perfect overnight. When we get report and suggestions from players that helps us know what areas to focus on.

Hi Farflier,

You have talked a lot to the Arena and you are right about what you are saying. While complaints regarding Arena are what reminded us of the issue, boss battle balancing was actually the more concerning aspect for us. Both are important, but I think being able to balance boss battles is more so.

Hi Steendorian,

I'm not really clear on what you are getting at. We test with copies actual players from the live game at different levels, our test platform is an identical copy of the game, and our test server is hosted on the same cloud service as our live servers.

-David

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 10:52 AM
Andaho
"We don't have any other class changes on the horizon"
----------
Well, you should. You replied to all the easy questions again, and ignored the more serious harder questions. Completely ignoring all of my concerns about the balance between the classes.

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 11:26 AM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Andaho,

You posted quite a lot, some of which was directed towards Justin - whom I don't blame for not responding after being called "Dave B". I think at some of your concerns should be addressed in my above response however - particularly the concerns that we were focused on Arena. I'm really not sure which is "the more serious harder questions". So I am not really sure what to address in your post. I can't really handle all of it at once. If you separate out a few points you would like addressed I can handle that, but the wall of text is too much.

-David

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 11:41 AM
Andaho
Dave B = Dave Buckingham (on page 1).

I wasn't calling Justin "Dave B", lol, I was agreeing with what Dave B wrote.

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 11:57 AM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hmm well that was definitely not clear! whoops.

39 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 1:43 PM
poisondwarf
Just out of curiosity of a non-native...would it be a special offence to call someone "Dave B."?

50 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 2:10 PM
Jomale
No, Poison.... unless you were referring to David Whittaker as Dave A...inferring that Justin was a "clone" meaning he was Dave B. Kind of funny how words can be misinterpreted. lol

39 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 2:15 PM
poisondwarf
thx, Jo :) The interpretation you're suggesting didn't even came to my mind...so I am not missing a film reference or sth like that :D
Well, David Buck could reconsider his last name or call himself Klaus to avoid misinterpretations like this.

8 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2015 at 3:28 PM
Dave Buckingham
Ummmm hello My name is Dave B pleased to meet you
Post by Dave Buckingham deleted June 5th 2015 at 3:28 PM

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 6th 2015 at 12:59 PM
Last Edited June 6th 2015 at 2:30 PM
Farflier
Damage discrepancy is far more enormous now than it ever was, check this out:
I spec full 15 int, full 15 laser (and 10 phase for mana). I have just under 8000 int and just under 42000 ability power now.
Warrior only specs 10 furious, 10 impale. They have about 3000 strength, 17000 attack damage.
Warrior and I do MP together. Warrior gets *DOUBLE* my damage score, lols. This is true for 4 different warriors now, just today. They do double my damage with only 40% as much damage stats. So then a warrior only needs 20% as much strength as I have intelligence to match my damage? (these are rough, rounded figures obviously)

I get that wizard is supposed to have more "utility", and they do, I guess. But do you really mean for the damage to be this much of a difference? It's pretty crazy... even with my level of gems and gear progression I definitely will not be able to maintain high mission scores. And no other wizard is even gonna show up in the top 20, at this rate. Not that they ever have, but just sayin... hope you're not tuning wizard damage based off of my character, heh.

EDIT: Would also like to point out that almost every wiz is specced freeze because it's pretty much the only useful attack. Laser damage, as you see above, is a joke so nobody goes there.. and shock is pretty much only for when you're grouped with 2-3 other wizards as redundant freezes is still better.. perhaps if the damage was more appropriate, more wizards would spec laser, thus less wizards would have freeze in arena. Nonwizards then get frozen less, and the volume of complaints should dwindle.. just a thought.

52 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 6th 2015 at 1:17 PM
Annie
Yep, Far, that's why I asked for doubling the damage of Flamelaser. :) Its damage is so puny!

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 6th 2015 at 3:16 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Farflier,

Looking over the max damage of the skills on their own, they are actually quite comparable 456% of primary for Flame Laser and 470% of primary for Impale. Real difference is the boost from furious. Phase Shift which is the wizard version of furious grants immunity and damage resistance making the wizard able to take a lot more damage than a warrior. Not really the traditional take on those classes I admit.

Thinking it over, but maybe a good solution here is to add some new skills. A damage multiplier for wizards and an armour multiplier for warriors. It could balance things out some. But it needs some careful thought.

-David