You keep going back to the Ana thing like it's some big trap. I said even if you didn't use her the whole time you'd get more chests our way because we're faster. I never said that our strategy didn't involve using Ana in an overnight run. Like with many things, you just assumed.

You've also pointed out a couple of times, when I brought up speed and DPS, that the issue you have been consistently talking about was the dungeon XP (as pointed out in https://forum.codenameentertainment.com/?thread_id=24915#96207, or post 7 on page 3 if the link doesn't work). As bungo points out, area 9000 in 5.5 hours gives more XP than area 7000 in 5.5 hours, so clearly you haven't fully explained your point, because your "clear explanation" on that post was about the XP and as far as that goes there's a pretty clear winner. You're saying it's like 2 x 4 > 3 x 2, where we're on the latter half. What it ACTUALLY is 9000/5.5 gives more areas an hour than 7000x5.5, and you're sitting here adamant that you're getting more runs or points with the 7000x5.5. It's a pretty simple calculation, you don't have to use made-up numbers to show that 9000 areas in 5.5 hours is better than 7000 areas in 5.5 hours.

You ALSO complained that nobody did a comparison between your form and ours. Weirdly enough, when that comparison was posted, you seem to have just ignored the fact that his results were better than yours, instead switching gears to the fact that... something about yours was still better? It's not the DPS, speed, chests, points, or coins though, because those are all better when you can do 9000 areas in 5.5 hours vs 7000 areas in 5.5 hours.

You've also brought up the fact that different people have posted different strategies. I realize this may come as a shock to you, but not all of us use the same strategies. They're just all based on the same methods, and those methods are what we're trying to get through to you, regardless of independent strategy. Some people use Rex, some don't. Some use Viktor, some don't. Back when this thread started I don't think everyone had even fully replaced standard speed forms with speed shells until after the speed form had worn out (which is likely why Grag had linked a standard Jaio speed form, it was closer to your forms and still in use by some people); we discovered afterwards it'd be a better use of time to just use the shell all the way through. Skeleton forms certainly didn't exist at that point yet, which is its own thing we haven't even touched on in this thread yet.

> As clearly evidenced by the aggressiveness and stubbornness displayed by the users in this thread.

The lack of self-awareness here is simply astounding.

Edit: HOLD UP. You completely misinterpreted my Ana statement in addition to making assumptions on whether I did or did not use Ana overnight. I did not say "Not using Ana at all would give more chests." I said OVERNIGHT runs. You'd obviously still run Ana in the speed forms while awake, even with that inferior method.

"I said even if you didn't use her the whole time you'd get more chests our way because we're faster."

I want you to read this sentence as many times as it takes for you to understand what you just said.

Also, you said "the amount of chests we get at our speeds of 1k+ areas an hour still means we're getting more chests total than you're getting by running Ana full time, even if we choose not to use her in an overnight run."

If not referring to purely comparing speed to the use of Ana, then explain your use of the term "full time". The way this is worded sounds like "Using Ana full time amounts to less than using her part time with faster runs." No matter how you calculate chest gain, the numbers will show that the the quickest chest gains come from the numbers of runs, not the number of areas completed. That's why chest runs are different than idol runs. Sprint to 3500, reset, repeat. No matter how fast your formation is, it's not SPRINTING past area 3500. An extra run per day means an extra sprint per day. That makes a far bigger impact than even an impossibly-fast 1-second-per-area idol run. So how does your "full time" pan out logically?

As for the rest...sigh. Again. Here we go...

9000/5.5 > 7000/5.5. This is true. Also not all the information. Every time your side tries to make a point, it omits major details and reduces everything to an irrelevant, oversimplified version of itself with no other factors contributing to how those numbers get applied. Yes, 9000/5.5 is greater than 7000/5.5, but the former requires methods that are not conducive to idol play. When you reduce it to JUST the hard numbers, of course it sounds cut-and-dry, but then you apply those numbers to actual practice and it turns out that the former doesn't work with overnight runs and requires more attention, so the individual run pays out more, but there are fewer runs per day due to the former not being completed overnight. This is why I don't trust your side, and why I "ignored the fact that his results were better than yours", because your side removes inconvenient elements to oversimplify debates in your favor.

If it's easier for you to understand, think of this example: There are two packages of toilet paper rolls. Package A has 20 rolls for $10, package B has 40 rolls for $15. Taken at this simple, straightforward approach, it should be obvious that package B is the better deal. However, when you add in the detail of availability, like the person in question only has $10 to spend and cannot afford package B, it changes the outcome. Despite the math being solidly in favor of package B, it is not the reasonable choice due to the limitations of the person's budget. Removing all inconveniences from the situation leaves you with a mathematically-solid, but logically-incomplete example. This is what your side has repeatedly failed to comprehend in your debates.

Maybe if someone other than me explains it, it will get through your thick skull. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJtaaM7Txys Check this video out to see how he explains how oversimplifying the issue down to pure, cold, unfeeling math can actually be detrimental. The inclusion of the human element that is subject to, and therefor restricted by, things like time, energy, mental and emotional capacity, etc can, at times, oppose the mathematically-proven facts. Even if the math holds up, it doesn't matter if the math cannot reasonably be applied within the limits of the system it exists within: The human element.

If you remove all nuance, then sure, you have a point, but the nuance is there. It exists. Removing it invalidates the math's credibility. I could say that the best way to build this structure would be to use steel, but if I don't have any steel available, then that doesn't really matter. I could say that doing more areas per run amounts to more areas per day, but that doesn't account for how many RUNS are in the day. If I'm giving up runs per day, I'm also giving up areas per day. The static "time" factor is under the assumption that both forms are always functioning on perfect efficiency, but both forms are NOT always functioning on perfect efficiency, so the "time" factor cannot be static.

Simply: The math doesn't exist in a void, but your arguments tend to assume that it DOES exist in a void. I keep explaining this and you keep failing to grasp it.

"Do you seriously not ever check your formation between area 1 and area 7000?" Not really, no. It takes care of itself up until around area 6000. I switch some crusaders and/or swap others in and it's basically set until 7000. And for overnight runs, I can just start a run, gold form, level all, click the DPS preset, set the taskmasters, leave, and when I come back from my beauty sleep, be at 7000, or close enough to it that it only takes a few minutes (after swapping Thalia out for a bit more DPS) to reach the end of the run. Sometimes I have to get up early in the morning for work, and I get up 1 hour before I have to leave. In that time, I have enough time to do all my morning stuff, prepare for work, finish the run, and setup an entirely new run which typically gets close to the end by the time I'm back from work. I could average 3 runs on workdays, and 4 on days off. With the suggested formations from this thread, I was regularly unable to top 3 runs on ANY day with luck and timing on my side.

As for checking near the end of a run, I know how long my runs take. I can time them down to roughly 30-minute spans. If I start a run at 4pm, I know I won't need to check my formation until around 8-ish. Swap a few crusaders, let it do it's thing until 9, swap one more crusader, formation will hit 7000 without any further intervention. Come back around 9:30-10, it's set, start new run or do chest runs if not enough time for full run. The benefit of being so familiar with my formation and being so anal about the little details is that I'm regularly able to come back to check on my formation within the time it takes it to either A) Only recently begun slowing down, or B) Only recently begun failing areas. Thanks to my formation including speed crusaders even at it's slowest, it's able to jump through that home stretch reasonably quickly, and my "pure" DPS form is still fast enough to do a full run during the 8-10 hours I'm asleep.

Comparing that to the suggested formations, none of their DPS forms even HAD speed crusaders other than Dros. If I used those overnight, I wouldn't even be done with half a run. "You're not SUPPOSED to use them overnight." I know. I was just making a point. If I use the speed forms suggested, I don't have enough DPS to get meaningfully further than the DPS form could slug its way to in the same length of time, and if I try swapping out DPS supports for more speed, that MIGHT get me to the end of a run by the time I'm awake, but each removed crusader reduces DPS to such a degree that the speed requirements for reaching late-run with decent DPS doesn't reach area 7000. Then I put the DPS support back in for the speedster and I'm back to slower progression pre- and post-7000.

As for actually being here to babysit the formations, the suggested forms are fickle and specific. If I use the speed form, I get to maybe area 4200 before it brickwalls. If I switch to a hybrid formation to continue, it's still very slow because there aren't many places I can put speedsters in that don't completely disrupt the DPSers. I end up running into the same issue as above - neutering DPS for speed, which doesn't last long enough to matter, which means I have to switch back for DPS anyway and accept the slower progression. To get around this, I tried using the Kris/Robo method to snapshot DPS and take advantage of full speed, which definitely does work for far longer than a hybrid form, but since it's a snapshot of DPS, not ACTUAL DPS, that means it doesn't benefit from Xyg levels or Milgrid stacks, which greatly impact DPS. After Robo runs out of clicks around area 6000, I have to switch back to DPS, go back to area 1 to avoid my form dying from the health loss, use GoR, swap in Kris, swap to speed/Robo, wait a moment for Robo to build damage and for the SuperViktor thing to propagate and increase my drop rates, which can take up to a minute, THEN finally continue progression. Repeat in maybe 45 minutes around area 7000, again around 7600, again around 8100, and after that it's mostly a matter of nickle and diming areas around 8300, so, depending on my mood, I'd just switch to DPS and HOPE GoR doesn't fall off to pound out the few extra areas, or just say "Screw it", end that run, and move to the next run.

The suggested forms leave no reasonable room for alteration. They range from being incredibly fast, but unable to progress far, incredibly powerful, but unreasonably slow, or using a gimmick that allows for both but requires babysitting and isn't overnight-viable.

"Scaling isn't linear. Getting to area 9000 once a day is worth more points than getting to 7000 twice a day (~2550 vs ~1175)." I know scaling isn't linear. And I don't reach 9000. In JJ, I reach around 8400 for about 2050 points, compared to my formation which generally reaches a bit past 7000 for about 1200, and my formation requires less effort.

"unless you're using our forms incorrectly." I have only done exactly what I was told to do. If I am "using your forms incorrectly", then you've failed to properly explain how to use them. I'm giving you all the information. I did what I was told to do and it didn't work. Those are the facts. I'm TELLING you what I'm doing in explicit detail. If your only defense is "I dunno what you're doing", then you're not paying attention. I did what I was told to do, so if your defense is "You did it incorrectly", then your guidance was incorrect. I'm open and willing to listen, but if you're just going to spite me when I do what you tell me to do and it doesn't work, there's really only one conclusion to draw: You're upset that your suggestions aren't working the way you predicted they would, so you take it out on me.

From my perspective, the conversational loop we've hit has become...

You: "Kick the ball."

Me: -Kicks ball-

You: "Nonononono, not like that! This way!"

Me: -Does it 'this way'-

You: "NO! YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! THIS OTHER WAY!"

Me: -Does it 'other way'-

You: "Why aren't you listening to me?! Do it the first way!"

Me: -Does it 'first way'-

You: "I told you to do it THIS way!!"

Me: "No, you told me to do it the first way."

You: "Are you even listening? I literally JUST told you to do it THIS way."

Me: "Sigh." -Does it 'this way'-

You: "Are you stupid?! I already told you to do it the other way!"

Me: "Have you considered that maybe you're giving bad advice?"

You: "HOW DARE YOU TALK BACK TO YOUR SUPERIOR, YOU LITTLE WHELP!!"

Me: "How about I just do it all three ways at once and you choose which is the proper way?" -Does all three ways-

You: "YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE UP YOUR OWN STUFF!! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO IT THIS FOURTH WAY!!"

Me: "........You keep changing your mind."

You: "No I don't! I've been saying the same thing this whole time!! Just kick, the, ball!"

Me: ............-Kicks ball-

You: "How are you STILL doing it wrong?!?!"

Me: "How am I doing it wrong?"

You: "You just are! I don't know how! You're not listening to me!"

Me: "I have exclusively been listening to you."

You: "Then how are you still doing it wrong?!"

Me: "Dunno. You tell me."

You: "How should I know?!"

Me: "Do you even know what you're talking about?"

You: "I COME FROM A LONG LINE OF PEDIGREE BALL-KICKERS, PLEB!"

Me: "That doesn't answer my question."

You: "You're just unwilling to learn, ask questions, and accept new information!!"

Me: "Or you're just terrible at teaching, responding to questions, and accepting feedback."

You: "You're saying it's MY FAULT?! I'm not the one who can't kick a ball!!"

Me: "I've done so. Many times."

You: "Incorrectly!"

Me: "Prove it?"

You: "I don't know how to!"

Me: "And who's fault is that?"

You: "Yours, duh!"

Me: "Why?"

You: "Because it can't be MY fault!"

Me: "Why not?"

You: "Because YOU'RE the one kicking the ball!"

Me: "Under YOUR instruction."

You: "I'M not the one failing!"

Me: "That's debatable."

I'm sure you've long since gotten the point by now, but if the example hasn't made it clear, I view all of you as impossibly dense. I try asking questions and they get ignored. I try making sense of what I'm being told and then what I'm being told suddenly changes. If I'm confused about what you're saying, then it's my fault, not yours. And if I ask questions to mitigate my confusion, I'm berated, so instead of asking questions to put the onus on you to explain, I opt to simply explain myself. To which I get berated. Again.

You want facts. I give you facts. You don't like those facts. You blame me. I say I got those facts from you. You deny it. I prove it. You become passive aggressive. I tell you that you're being passive aggressive. You want facts. Repeat.

"But hey, what do we know. We already had people get the taskmaster before the reduction in points that just happened. Probably doesn't mean much."

You're right. It doesn't mean much. Of course there are people who already got it. You and I aren't the strongest players. I also noticed that you didn't specify that YOU got it. There are likely people that aren't in your community that already got it. "People in our community got it" proves nothing unless they are the ONLY people who got it in ANY community. If the intent is to suggest that your way is the right way, then how come EVERYONE in your community hasn't gotten it yet? That suggests that it isn't the method, it's the specific people using the method and some particular factor that applies to them that gives them an advantage over others using the same method, like number of materials, idols, etc. This is what I mean by your side excluding inconvenient data.

>Idle game

Literally the point of the game is to find the most efficient way to be lazy, dude lol

I love how your side agreed that babysitting is bad, and then when I say "I don't want to babysit", you make that sound like a terrible, awful, detestable, unforgivably-lazy thing lol I keep saying your arguments keep shifting to contradict yourself and this just further proves that.

As for Karen and Billy, check the comment not long after that which BEGINS with "Preface: Honestly, I forgot Karen had that ability. Whoops, my fault." So I actually admitted that I forgot, admitted it was my fault, and didn't fault anyone else for failing to explain. I accepted the fault for something that was, legitimately my fault, then corrected it thereafter.

You can stop trying to make me sound like the bad guy lol As usual, your arguments omit inconvenient details. I explained why I didn't add her at first - I literally couldn't because she was on a mission - and then I admitted my fault for forgetting her ability. Then, once she was off her mission, I added her. I followed the directions just fine as soon as I was able to, and ALL of my tests were conducted with the exact formations suggested AFTER I took the time to analyze how all the abilities interacted, but you're still trying to shame me for one small mistake I immediately admitted I made and just as immediately corrected. All your side does is twist facts to fulfil the role of being a contrarian, and I'm supposed to trust you? You're so desperate to vilify me, it's kind of disturbing.

You, specifically, Bungo, have contributed, by far, the least. You have no right to suggest your inaction is a result of my choices. You've been largely inactive the entire time. Trying to recontextualize your impotence just makes you, again, look desperate. All you've done this entire time was pop in, laugh and troll, agree with the people ACTUALLY debating while adding nothing yourself, and cackle like the mindless cymbal-monkey you are.