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Patch Notes - 12/19/2014 - Class Balance Fixes

35 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 20th 2014 at 1:51 PM
Avyctes
Also why didn't you simply buff warrior and ranger even more and leave the wizard alone. Keeps everyone happy, no?

91 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 20th 2014 at 1:59 PM
shikitenshi
so ranger is the new wizard? I'm not happy either and I don't want warrior to be the new wizard and why can't all classes be equal?

52 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 20th 2014 at 3:02 PM
Annie
There, you can add me to the list of people who have killed the HoT troll. I paid to win.

273 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 20th 2014 at 5:00 PM
TsukasaWM
"so ranger is the new wizard? I'm not happy either and I don't want warrior to be the new wizard and why can't all classes be equal?"

To be fair though, class balancing isn't always the easiest task in the world, plus I think ultimately people wouldn't expect things to be perfectly equal, but more of a rock-paper-scissors type of thing imo.

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 20th 2014 at 5:15 PM
Last Edited December 21st 2014 at 5:07 PM
Andaho
"perfectly equal"...

Well, for players to feel the game is fair, I think the basics should be equal... Because HoT is the ultimate measure of success in the game, and virtually the only place to get epic gear (sure you can get it from the brotherhood too, but the skills are considerably better value)...

To quote the balance changes here:
- Warriors have average damage for both AOE and Single Target attacks
- Rangers have slightly above average damage for Single Target attacks and slightly below average damage for AOE attacks
- Wizards have slightly above average damage for AOE and slightly below average damage for Single Target attacks

To deliberately make the ranger have an advantage on single targets gives an advantage in HoT... and to deliberately give below average single target damage to the wizard gives them the disadvantage.

And I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but... wizards have AD (I have about 600), and warriors have AP... but it's not used for any damage calculation for wizards or warriors... for the rangers, even if they were to specialise in AP or AD, they will still have some of the other that contributes to their damage.

And because of that, rangers also have the natural advantage of being able to use ANY gem to improve their damage.

EDIT/UPDATE:

I think I may have gone a bit far with my previous complaints/rants... perhaps just because of the shock of how much we got nerfed... But this post, I still hold my ground on, and think this is where the main balance problems are.

3 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 20th 2014 at 9:37 PM
Skyline
Before patch wizards were too overpowered and rangers were great also, but warriors were the worst class. Now Rangers are the overpowered class and wizards are great but not overpower now. And warriors have been improved but I think they still are the worst class but a bit closer to the other classes than before.

Wizards were used to almost kill with one hit that's why they mostly complain about the patch but we must recongnize that they were the best class, that's why the server was 60% wizards.

My opinion is that Rangers should be nerfed a bit and warrior whould be improved a little little bit so the 3 classes will be very balanced.

91 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 21st 2014 at 1:30 AM
shikitenshi
warriors' only AOE is whirlwind which is ridiculously weak . cleave that only hits one row is better but still very weak. with so few skill points available at this moment those two are a waste of points. they're only useful for the spiders heroic(no offense warriors who like cleave).as for our single target attacks ,impale became very good but useless in HOT cause it needs 30 rage, you can only land one at the end of the battle if you survive until there and furious who could improve a regular attack needs a turn and who wants to lose a turn against oliver or eliza?so yes I'd say warrior is still the weakest class , it got a little better but it's far away from balance or fairness .not that I expected any of these. I still like warrior even if it's the weakest :P

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 9:30 AM
Last Edited December 22nd 2014 at 9:33 AM
Andaho
I just wasted almost 1000 shardium ($10 worth) trying to kill the troll again, by buying pots and paying to revive a few times, testing different tactics...

My previous win on him was indeed a very luck a one-off super-duper-lucky kill... all the attempts I just tried, I never even got close to killing him again, so I gave up, not wanting to spend more.

My conclusion is that the wizard skills are rubbish, and don't help at all... the best way to get closest to kill him, is only using fireball - as a direct replacement to auto attack, since auto does less damage now.

Of course, I'm not requesting a refund... It's my own stupid fault for trying to kill him again by paying for it... But it does leave a horrid feeling of regretting spending so much (and a bit of feeling cheated), that makes you feel like you never want to spend money on the game ever again! - I probably will though :P (but I won't be trying anything stupid like that again).

793 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 10:56 AM
Justin Stocks (CNE Dev)
Hi folks,

Thank you for all your feedback. We definitely do appreciate it. I want to clear up a few things and let you know what we've got planned for additional changes.

1) My example of Warriors and Wizards at 5000 AD/AP being equivalent to Rangers at 2500 AD/AP is correct. The base stats and gear are balanced such that those numbers will occur. Rangers at an equal level and equal gear should always have their AD+AP be equal to a Warrior/Wizard's AD or AP only. Warrior's AD and Wizard's AP is not a factor in these calculations.

2) Some people have latched onto the patch notes about Rangers being better at Single Target and Wizards being better at AOE. As I said in the notes, these differences are SLIGHT. The difference between Rangers and Wizards is around 5% (for example, at 5000 class power, a ranger's piercing arrow hits for 24400, while a wizard's flame laser hits for 23060.) It would take around 20 of those attacks (600 energy/mana!) before a ranger would have done one attack's worth of additional damage.

3) I know some people are sad that we nerfed auto attack, but this was a design decision that is best for the game moving forward and we're sticking with it. We really don't want the best build in the game to be one where you just sit there and watch the battle unfold without taking any action. We want combat to be more dynamic and interactive than that.

4) We didn't really make any major changes to the wizard secondary effects in the balance pass and in retrospect there are some quality of life improvements we could do there:

4a) For the "Freeze" secondary effect the stun doesn't have a graphic to show it has proc'd, so we're going to make sure that gets in to make it more obvious. The Troll in the HoT also does a stun (with his "Bop" skill), and it also doesn't have a graphic, which is why it can sometimes seem like you just stand there while the troll beats you up. Impale also has a small stun chance at higher levels as well, which likewise doesn't have a graphic.

4b) Shock's secondary effect could use some work. Most enemies don't actually have very much armor or magic resistance, which is why players weren't noticing a damage boost from using this spell. We may just turn this into a flat damage increase from your next couple of attacks. That would make this spell function similarly to Pincushion, except the damage bonus would apply to all mage spells instead of just Pincushion (and piercing arrow @ ranks 5+).

4c) Likewise with Phase Shift, Wizards just don't have enough armor or MR to make the increase terribly noticeable. We're planning to change this into a flat damage reduction bonus, which should make this skill very desirable. Ironically, it may turn mages into the most tanky class with the least burst potential (due to the lack of a furious/aim type skill), so in the long run it may make sense to swap this skill with furious and let warriors be tanky but less bursty and give mages some better burst potential. Let me know what you guys think about that kind of potential change.

Overall, I'm fairly happy with the changes and (although it may seem counter-intuitive), very happy to see the debate and discussion in this thread. It shows that you're all just as passionate about this game as we are. Ideally we'd like to get to a point where all classes feel powerful in their own way.

273 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 11:10 AM
TsukasaWM
"3) I know some people are sad that we nerfed auto attack, but this was a design decision that is best for the game moving forward and we're sticking with it. We really don't want the best build in the game to be one where you just sit there and watch the battle unfold without taking any action. We want combat to be more dynamic and interactive than that."

I'm sorry, I'm extremely disappointed to hear that, and if that's going to be the case I'll probably be distancing myself from this game if not leaving outright, even though I've been playing daily since alpha and put a decent amount of money into it so far. A huge part of the reason I continued to play this game is because with auto-attack it was easy and enjoyable to play the game on the side while I did something else. Don't get me wrong, I fully support adding more interactive options to battles, and from a developer standpoint I understand why because you don't want people getting bored. That's perfectly fine and acceptable. However I think it's extremely unfair for the developers to define what is and isn't fun for the players. If I find an auto-attack build a fun solution for the amount of time and attention I can give the game then I shouldn't be punished for that just because it's not what YOU want. By all means, add in more interaction to battles, but please, please, please don't screw over people that find enjoyment in using a certain build to play the game. Auto-attack is providing no unfair advantages over other players or to the gameplay in general and there's absolutely no reason it should have been nerfed.

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 11:23 AM
Last Edited December 22nd 2014 at 12:26 PM
Andaho
Thanks Justin, I really appreciate all of those answers, and do think I may have gone a little far with my complaints at first... just from the shock of being nerfed...

And I like the sound of those plans for wizard skills :)

But I do have one question:

The issue around rangers being able to benefit from all/any gems? - how that gives them a natural advantage over the other classes... I have loads of STR and DEX gems that are next to useless to me, but rangers can take advantage of them...

As an example... Defiar tells me he has just short of 8000 AP+AD, while I've been focusing on building AP, and only have short of 7000 AP (which includes brotherhood bonus that I've been focusing in).

...could that 1000 advantage be from the gems?

The other issue around that is... It's possible to get items that have secondary stats with +AP and +AD (isn't it?) - so that's another advantage?

EDIT/UPDATE:
The other issue around that is... It's possible to get items that have secondary stats with +AP and +AD (isn't it?) - so that's another advantage? - Even if you can't get AP and AD together... there's the random chance of getting AD on epic items (or AP for warriors), which is useless to us.... when as if a ranger gets either, they benefit from it... Infact, STR and DEX as secondary stats too. (and also, they can use AP + AD shards)...

In this game, the small things add up quickly, and become a big difference.



Also, I agree with Tsukasa (but I won't be distancing myself from the game. The reason I keep playing your games is that you value player feedback!)...

I prefer to play the game in a relaxed manner... chatting while in battles (now that we can)... but I also like the option to play around with skills and do different stuff if I want to... But I don't like to feel that to be competitive, I HAVE to.

91 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 11:35 AM
shikitenshi
I'm also unhappy without auto attack. it was nice to select the player in arena and do chores. especially when after 10 arena I was seeing "win 8 arena battles" hopping in paragon.and andaho is right about gems especially since we all find mostly useless gems for our class.

92 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 12:24 PM
Defiar
Justin,

Do you know if the armor breaking is working for Rangers? I see the icon but notice no difference in damage. I imagine this is because of the same thing you are describing above for wizards...that it just wouldnt make that much difference at this stage of the game.

793 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 12:45 PM
Last Edited December 22nd 2014 at 12:48 PM
Justin Stocks (CNE Dev)
Would those of you who want to AFK/chat in battles (arena in particular) be happier if there was a button you could click/toggle that would let the general AI pick which skills you use? Then you could start an arena battle, toggle on an AI for your character and chat without needing to actively use your skills (though the AI may not always use the most effective skills, and you could take over for it at any time to switch targets/use a particular skill if it looks like it's making a dumb choice).

Regarding secondary stats on gear, rangers should be finding that the max AD/AP rolls on those items will be half as large as max warriors/wizards AD/AP rolls, and their str/int rolls end up being much smaller than their dex rolls (or warrior/wizard str/int rolls). What I'm basically saying is that all of the max values for each stat on gear (both primary and secondary stats) are class specific. While it's true that they can benefit from all the stats, all of those numbers (excluding dex, which is their primary stat) will be smaller on gear.

With that said, shard quarry crystals, university, and guild skill tower values are *not* class specific, so there may be a slight advantage from that. Fairly minor at this point, though.

793 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 12:46 PM
Justin Stocks (CNE Dev)
Defiar - Yes, it likely suffers from similar problems, however it's random proc effect instead of a primary affect (like with shock), so it's of secondary concern to us at the moment.

52 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 12:52 PM
Annie
So, what you're saying is that if Defiar got these pants of mine (http://gyazo.com/84bd69ea035e5d7aad266e39be4d03f5) he'd only get half a slice of these secondary stats? May I also add how ridiculously unepic these pants are no matter what class gets them? (But of course it had to be me)

92 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 12:56 PM
Defiar
Justin/Andaho - Just to rebut a moment. Strength and int gems can be used by rangers but in most cases we wouldnt want to. With 10 in my dex skill, I get a 50% jump in dex. So a 15 dex gem becomes 22.5. Why would I use a 21 str or 21 int gem then? Right now I have one of each to build up all the loose str and int gems I have but my goal is to eliminate those very very soon.

The only part where I see a boost is if equip has AD or AP on it. This could be useless to a player but at the same time, I for one do not like to have gear with these stats. I prefer dex, str, endura, health, speed. The number for AD or AP would have to be very high to be worthwhile to me.

35 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 1:39 PM
Last Edited December 22nd 2014 at 1:46 PM
Avyctes
Regarding Justins comments on lacking armor and resist to make certain skills worth using, that's very true but perhaps a sign that there's simply not enough of them so that anything that adds to them is a bad choice when you can go for health instead.

Especially the healthy skill is so much more powerful than resistant and armorer put together and only costs half the skill points. I feel you should look at that.

273 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 2:08 PM
TsukasaWM
"Would those of you who want to AFK/chat in battles (arena in particular) be happier if there was a button you could click/toggle that would let the general AI pick which skills you use? Then you could start an arena battle, toggle on an AI for your character and chat without needing to actively use your skills (though the AI may not always use the most effective skills, and you could take over for it at any time to switch targets/use a particular skill if it looks like it's making a dumb choice)."

While I'd much rather just keep auto-attack as it was, if it absolutely to change I think I would feel this could be a reasonable compromise depending on how it's ultimately done.

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted December 22nd 2014 at 2:41 PM
Andaho
I wouldn't use an AI mode.