Email: Password:
Codename Entertainment
 | Page 1 2 3
General Concerns

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 2:25 PM
Last Edited May 31st 2015 at 3:05 PM
Andaho
So, from the logic you are explaining.... at level 45, you're saying you get those diminishing returns after having 332 speed? If that is so...

When I strip off ALL of my gear, I have 274 speed (from uni, skill tower, jungle trinket + brotherhood).. only -58 from 332... So any speed you have over 332 is not really worth having, due to the diminishing returns?... So you basically just need to equip boots, then you're way into the diminishing returns, and you don't need the speed stat as a secondary, or on any other gear... because from looking at your curve, it's impossible to get even to 3x speed? - so 2x speed is plenty... and even the boots primary speed alone give more speed than is worthwhile?

This also means that every brotherhood point spend in speed boost is wasted, because it's simply just not needed, and makes such a small difference that it's irrelevant?

Am I understanding something wrong here?

EDIT/UPDATE:

I just took off all my gear, except from one item with speed on it, taking me up to (or rather, down to) 334 speed - and my "speed bonus" percentage is showing at 100.50%, which I understand is 2x speed...

I went to test in arena: In a VERY long battle, that lasted about 15-20 turns (I tried to count them, but it took so long I lost count), my opponent was only able to attack twice in a row, once. So basically, that confirms what I was questioning above...

Speed as a stat is now so ineffective, that as a wizard, having +1 strength on an item would be better than having +100 speed once you're over 100% speed bonus.

^^ and I'm not exaggerating... This arena test battle went on far far longer than a battle ever normally does, because I was naked and doing tiny damage - my random opponent was level 38 - so the level effectiveness made him hit me for hardly anything as well. (and yeah, on a different subject, the level effectiveness seems a bit over the top too! - why am I able to win against someone only 7 levels below me, when I'm completely naked!?)

Speed is now completely useless.

I don't know where the term "god stat" started - I'd never heard it called that before you mentioned it recently. Sure speed probably used to be the most desirable stat... but that was quite cool... I don't think it was stupidly overpowered...

I invested EVERYTHING I could into speed, and by doing that, I was able to hit enemies twice for when they hit me once... that didn't seem imbalanced... it seemed quite normal.... just like if I invested everything I could into HP, I'd expect to be able to survive twice as many hits... I don't see how speed was ever a "god stat"?

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 4:26 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Andaho,

Not sure where I heard "god stat" first, but it was a term that I observed players using. It was accurately so, at level 30 the average enemy had 150ish speed. Having 1000 speed would mean you got 1000/150 (6.6) attacks before they got an attack. Multiplying your damage by 6x essentially.

Now looking at the numbers and taking into account university, and guild bonuses, and considering you get there with just one pair of purple boots I think the 2x amount may be significantly lower than it should be. I will bring it up with Justin tomorrow (as mentioned before, he does the balancing) and see if we can't come up with a better solution.

-David

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 4:36 PM
Andaho
I'm not aware of ever attacking anything like 6 times before an enemy... and nobody had 1000 speed.... as far as I know, Twinky was the highest speed player in the game with about 850...

When playing T3 or T4 missions with my 759 speed (before the jungle), it was typically a 1 turn each kind of battle, where after maybe 2-3 turns you'd attack twice... which is what I'd expect for having rolled all perfect and near-perfect speed stats on my items... it was a perfect balance... I dunno where you're getting 6.6 attacks from, but with the way speed was nerfed, you're obviously missing something major from your calculations.

52 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 4:39 PM
Last Edited May 31st 2015 at 4:42 PM
Annie
Maybe he meant 1k speed when certain players had potted up. In that case pots were the issue, not the speed.

Edit: Also, if the average enemy really only had 150 speed at lvl30, that means with my 700 speed before the Jungle, I would have attacked them like 4 times before they attacked me - never happened. Most I've seen is attacking twice in a row in a battle.

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 4:44 PM
Last Edited May 31st 2015 at 4:53 PM
Andaho
And to follow up on Annie's edit... I would sometimes run T1 missions when escorting fresh level 30 players... even in T1 missions I don't recall ever attacking more than 3 times in a row (actually, maybe with the exception of the forest MP - but that's because it's a level 15 dungeon!!!)... Also, when running a T1, compared to my usual T3 or T4, I'd expect to be overpowering them!

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 4:44 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Just nice round numbers for examples in the math. Not calling out anyones stats in particular. Heroic enemies had slightly more speed due to being level 32 to 34 depending on the monster and mission.

232 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 4:54 PM
Andaho
^^ sorry, some factual edits and example edited in my previous post. - just bumping here to make you aware of them :)

32 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 8:05 PM
Last Edited May 31st 2015 at 8:10 PM
883Dave
I agree with Andaho about investing in speed.
What concerns me now is, what happen if you find out luck, critical hit, magic armor...etc. are over powered, or not balanced?
I put time as well as money into developing my toon.
I don't think I feel comfortable "investing" in anything?

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted May 31st 2015 at 11:08 PM
Last Edited May 31st 2015 at 11:15 PM
Farflier
Ehh yeah actually everyone did pretty much get 2 turns between enemy turns at lvl 30. Very few people managed to SOMETIMES get 3. That really wasn't that bad. Should probably rethink the degree to which speed was tampered with. Or, significantly reduce enemy speeds across the board, especially if the soft cap is absolute.

2 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 1st 2015 at 12:13 AM
Last Edited June 1st 2015 at 6:26 AM
Twinky
Ok so this is my first time posting on a forum and i just want to voice my opinion about this speed issue since as Andaho mentioned that I had achieved the highest speed before the release. I agree with everyone here that speed is not an overly powered of a stat as one might think. Its a stat just like any other stat I would have invested in whether it be damage, crit hit, health or any others. I think the perception made it seem like a "god stat" was the fact that if you ran a way lower tier you would certainly see the speed difference between your character and the enemy. On average I ran multiple T4s and still only managed to get 1-2 turns depending on enemy's speed (never 3 which i would probably need to buy speed pots for). On T5 majority of the top players even attempting it would be outclassed in speed (ex. spider MP). So I don't see how speed was that broken. Now its just gotten worse. I'm going through jungle missions and sometimes these enemies get 2 turns before i could even make a move at which point my health is very low and companions useless as meat shields once again. So my suggestion to fix this speed issue is to either reduce the difficulty of the enemies on each tier or take out this diminishing returns speed model and revert it back to the way it was before jungle.
Secondly I want to know is what's the purpose of having a T6 if its impossible to reach. Even maxing out our character fully with all lvl 45 gear, T6 maxed out on each equipment (if its even possible to get there with the amount of frags we need growing exponentially), all perfect stats, all slots open, all +138 imperial gems in each slot...T6 would still be impossible. Have you ever tested that yet?
To conclude i don't see a good correlation between diminishing speed and exponentially growing frags we need to get based on the low tiers we are only capable of doing.

32 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 1st 2015 at 10:23 AM
883Dave
Spiders on Journey to the river on T3
Spiders ALWAYS get to hit first...I do not have enough health at skill 15 to kill the last wave, and this assumes that the critical hits are low.
Health at start 215k
So first round 3 hits...companions out...16k life down +6.5k health (205.5 life)
second round 3 hits...48k life down +6.5k health. (164k)
third round 4 hits...67k life down, +6.5k health (103.5k)
fourth round 5 hits...90k life down, +6.5k health (20k)
fifth round 2 hits...32 life down....DEAD
This assumes that there are zero critical...have never had a round without at least 4
I tried this about 10 times, was never able to get a hit on the end round

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 1st 2015 at 11:50 AM
Last Edited June 1st 2015 at 11:52 AM
Farflier
There are many, many battles that play out how Phaque has described above. I had a similar experience in a T1 jungle mission, boss fight at the end. Couldn't complete, had to leave.

And now, my alt reached jungle and is locked out of previous missions. But, he can't beat the first battle in welcome to the jungle (but really should be able to as he is only 1 lvl lower).. If he survives first wave, dead before getting a turn on 2nd wave.

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 1st 2015 at 1:42 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Guys,

Just rolling out some patches now that address some of this.

We have changed the curve on speed reduction to allow for significantly higher speeds.

http://gyazo.com/4fd02548489e4a8ea9665c7e49ee8836

Heroics are harder than they were pre-jungle so we have increased the fragment drop count on T2 by +1, the drop on T3 by +2, and the T4 by +3.

One thing that probably wasn't brought to anyones attention before that I would like to point out is heroics also drop more loot. I have updated the display to show this, but T2 has a 20% chance to add an extra item to any loot drop, T3 has a 40%, T4 has a 60% chance etc.

The bug forcing you to do the Jungle intro mission has been remedied, and the jungle intro has been reduced in difficulty.

-David

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2015 at 3:20 PM
Last Edited June 2nd 2015 at 7:21 PM
Farflier
Could you explain to us how this speed multiplier concept is supposed to work? As far as I can tell, the multiplier and/or the percentage bonus displayed in your damage summary has no actual effect on combat whatsoever, and never has. The turns we got pre-jungle were a simple calculation as follows: FLOOR((player speed)/(enemy speed)). This may not have been the actual formula but it was definitely the behavior. Every player observed it, agreed, and it was even on the wiki, when the wiki was a thing. In other words, we got 2 turns if we had double the enemy's speed, 3 turns if we had triple, etc. And this is on a per-enemy basis.
Now with this in mind, you may realize that the actual effect of speed was never linear. The benefit we got from speed was and is still relative to the enemy(s) we are facing. Then, where does this idea of getting 8 turns between enemy turns come from? Where does this blue line come from? Nobody ever got 8 turns between any enemy. Even a lower-lvl nonheroic mob. In the content we were playing (typically maximum heroic tier we were capable of) we all got exactly ONE turn before/between the enemy, IF we had ridiculous speed. On the next lowest tier, maybe we'd get 2 turns.

Anyway, the point I'm getting at is; if your method of nerfing speed is to remain a soft cap on the effectiveness of our speed stat, then you MUST account for that in enemy speed as well. They either need to be subject to the same diminishing returns we are or have their flat speed value significantly reduced, or SOMETHING.

Just some things to think about. I feel like there's some disconnect on how we're thinking about this. I'll test your recent changes when I muster up the motivation.

Cheers

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2015 at 7:19 PM
Farflier
After playing several missions and talking to other folks, it seems most people are pleased with the adjustment overall. I am too, there's just some more things that still need to be addressed. Here's my own experience so far:
Capable of doing T4s in forest/desert again, with some building and in certain missions, respeccing. I get 2 turns between enemy rounds.
Not capable of doing T5s, but that's fine. Things did need to be more difficult in general.
Jungle missions are still far more difficult than forest/desert of same tier. Can do T2 jungle missions as opposed to T4 forest/desert, in general.

So, good changes so far I think.

Cheers

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2015 at 10:10 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Farflier,

The speed bonus displayed as part of how your attack score is calculated is a measure of how much faster your will move in combat compared to another player who has only the base speed.

As discussed above at level 45 base speed is 166. If you have 332 speed, or double the base speed your bonus would show as 100%. This means you are 100% faster a player who has only the base speed and will get to attack 2x as frequently.

To compare to enemies you need to know you have player stats, and battle stats. When a fight starts your player stats and bonuses are aggregated into battle stats. Once in a battle the game only uses your aggregate stats such as AP and AD, Armor, Magic Resist, Crit, and Speed. The other stats all feed into those stats.

With our speed curve we take your total speed, and divide it by your base speed to get the speed multiple. We then apply the curve function to the multiple, and multiply your total speed by that value. That resulting speed is your modified battle speed.

Enemies only have battle stats so speed works a little differently. Enemies also have a base speed per level. At level 45 that base speed is around 266. Enemies don't have gear however so their stats scale up differently than players to account for some of the expected stats gear provides the player.

When we setup enemies in the game we work in multiples of the enemy base level. So for example spiders in the northern temple have 2x attack damage, 0.05x armor, 2x health, and 1.25x speed. So a level 45 spider in that area has 266 x1.25 speed or 332 speed. For a player to attack once per spider attack their modified battle speed needs to be 332, to attack twice per it needs to be 664 etc.

As far as speed vs the lower level monsters, take your character into the earlier missions, on the across the river mission with my level 34 character with average speed I kill every enemy before even one of them gets a chance to attack. I think you would be able to see the speed difference much more clearly if it wasn't just one hit kills on everything...

Definitely going to continue to keep an eye on the balance of this. The jungle needs a by hand pass on every mission on heroic to ease out some of the crazy hard parts. Really my biggest concern is around missions with multiwave battles, battles with 5+ enemies, and high +level bosses. The boss in the first northern temple mission insane...

-David

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 3rd 2015 at 4:50 AM
Farflier
Ok, and then how do level effectiveness and/or the percentage increase on enemy "difficulty" on higher tiers come into play there?

Regarding low lvl missions, I have not done any since jungle, but prior to jungle with about 850 speed (pretty much as good as you could get then) I would have low lvl enemies hit me. The goblins on floor 16 of HoT for example, I got 4 turns before theirs. That's reasonable to me given they were significantly lower lvl. And still, the most anyone got was 2 turns on heroics, which is what we're really concerned with.

And yes, there is the very large discrepancy between multiwave and single-part battles, bosses, etc. Good to know you're looking at that.

23 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 3rd 2015 at 3:10 PM
Farflier
By the way, what are the chances some alternative could be figured out to the perfect secondaries? Several established players quit solely because of that. Of the ones I personally knew, one had been playing since the game's release, before my time. Another was one of your top 5 supporters. The former went all out and deleted his character, while the latter MAY come back if some alternative is figured out and implemented. Just sayin'.

886 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 3rd 2015 at 3:48 PM
David Whittaker (CNE Dev)
Hi Farflier,

Level effectiveness is applied at battle time when resolving how much damage should be done and if a hit is critical or not. It isn't different in heroic than in normal but because the heroic enemies are all higher than max level they all do get a level effectiveness bonus. Enemy level effectiveness is just their level.

On heroics the enemies are all level 45+ so they have level 45+ speed regardless of what level they were on normal.

I'm not sure there was a good solution to the perfect secondaries. I am open to suggestions, but at this point I feel like they would have to be an opt in type deal because I really hesitate to alter the stats on players or their gear unless it is really necessary. Over time better gear will become available which will make the current gear with perfect secondaries become less relevant. I have been mulling over the idea of giving back some power fragments when salvaging tiered gear to make it possible for players to switch to different gear and not lose everything invested.

-David

14 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 12th 2015 at 2:32 PM
irene
I deleted my alts when we had an event and they could not even win one battle, it was frustrating. Now my main character is feeling the same way. I have been here since Alpha, I have purchased items and I thought I was having some fun playing. Now I doubt it and the game. Things I could do before I can no longer do. The only heroics I can complete is Farmhouse, winding road and the troll crossing. I can get up to and do level 36 in HOT. I can complete on average one or two things in bounty a day. Where is the fun in any of this?

At this rate (approx 10 frags a day if the missions give me two which they do not always do) I will be able to tier up an item in 10 days. 10 days of playing the same thing over and over, boring!

With HOT I will be able to buy a 100 token item in 4-5 days to either equip and then enchant and tier or salvage and try to level up what I have.

During this time I play the same content with the same frustration level. I do not call that fun. Do you?

Where is my frustration?.... new players get to try new equipment and level up and feel they are accomplishing something. Older players can finish new content, play heroics with a greater return. Us middle players seem to suffer the nerfs with greater pain and not receive rewards equal to play. (or in some cases non play as I find one day I can finish a mission and the next day I am weaker and unable to finish it, wasting my time and mission.

My only answer right now is to stop buying stuff....no sense if it is meaningless in a week or two. I will wait to see if there is improvement.

Your answer, or I hope is your answer is that you will look at the middle player - level 30 -45 that has invested time, play and possibly money only to be reduced to a babbling idiot that can and does practice their dying technique.

Thank you for your time and reading this,
if i did not enjoy playing I would not voice my concerns.

Irenea