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Can anyone beet Draco for DPS?

3 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 7:46 AM
Zenf
I have been using Draco the serpent king for DPS since he came out. He is just so good. But lately I have been looking and looking for anyone else to use instead. I have tried a bunch of formations, getting gear up and calculating what they would have and all and I can not find anyone else that even comes with in .1% of the DPS I can get out of Draco.

So I am looking for suggestions? Who are other characters that people have built good formations around? Just need somewhere to look, suggestions?

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 8:18 AM
Azamagon
Before you reach level cap, Draco is among the absolute best, yes. But when the level cap starts to show up, I'd say any character at around Sarah's position (or preferably higher) become much stronger.

My personal best Crusader, bar non, is currently Frosty (moreso due to being full Legendary now). I'm not entirely sure, but at some point he even surpassed Draco before reaching the level cap, but that was probably only due to Frosty having a nudge better gear and/or because of the buff to his Snowball Fight skill.

859 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 8:20 AM
Last Edited June 2nd 2017 at 8:20 AM
Andreas
I've been playing around to build my formation around The Exterminator for main DPS. Since he caps much later than others, he is working nicely for me. Especially since his all three of his own legendary gear supports his DPS abilities or a robot formation directly.

3 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 8:37 AM
Zenf
Yeah both frosty and exterminator are guys I have looked at. They of course have more DPS for me when level capped, but the main reason i have not taken to using either of them is formation restrictions. They both have to be in middle of 6 people around them, and there are a lot of stages and special rounds where you can't do that.
I know most of the time even without ideal setups the DPS they give is going to be good enough to get the round done so it does not matter so much.

Thank you for suggestions, any others people know of? I was looking at space king lately as his Ladies Space King power can be really big, but not sure really.

171 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 10:39 AM
KameRose
Right now Kizlblyp is killing it for me, however before I started on her I was rocking it with the Robbie/Broot combo. With Kizlblyp you need plenty of males, including Billy and with Robbie you just need Broot directly in front of him. And since Robbie is an animal Montana and Boggins will give him a nice buff.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 12:17 PM
Teschio
Draco is the absolute best... until you reach level cap. After that, he is quite bad. I've been using Alien so far, and the only reason I haven't switched to the Exterminator is that I only have one rare (and therefore legendary) for him... bad luck, I guess, most of my other crusaders are full epic. Once I get him there, he will be my DPSer for sure.

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 12:35 PM
Animenut
I get a lot of use out of Prince Sal the Merman due to a few different reasons.

1) I have all of his golden legendaries, so his DPS is pretty good by himself.

2) Mr Boggins gives a great buff to animals and doesn't require him to be adjacent, and that buff also gets self-buffed based on the number of human crusaders in the formation, which works well since a lot of other support crusaders I use are human.

3) One of Thunder King's legendaries buffs royal crusaders.

4) One of Sal's legendaries gives a buff based on the number of female crusaders in the formation, and since Mindy the Mime, Gold Panda, Baenarall, and Veronica are all female, that's a pretty great buff from already-useful crusaders.

The DPS formation I use requires almost no "adjacent requirements", which leaves it easy to modify for objectives. I haven't tried an Exterminator formation for the same reason as Teschio - my gear for robot crusaders just is CURAP compared to my currently-used crusaders. Even if an Exterminator build has more potential, I wouldn't be able to actually reach that potential with sub-par gear.

189 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 12:58 PM
Azaryah
Sal also a good one for you because he shares many of the same tags to buff. He was my main guy for a good 6 months until i switched to Kiz.

Not using Exterminator for same reasons as the two above - and since i've been waiting this long, also sort of wondering if one of the seat 24 crusaders will turn out to be a good DPSer.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 6:24 PM
Last Edited June 2nd 2017 at 6:29 PM
Teschio
If you cap your heroes easily, Sal becomes much worse than Kiz. I used to use Sal a lot, probably for close to a year, but once I started capping him, he needed to be replaced.

By the way, unless your formation with Sal has a DPS 65k times bigger than with the Exterminator, and you can still instakill when you cap the Exterminator, you should definitely use him: the two heroes have about 200 levels of difference, and 4^8 is 65,536. Yes, level cap makes THAT kind of difference. Good thing you can disenchant those legendaries now, right? :D

Also, if you can cap your DPSer (and I've seen you around long enough that I assume you can), I don't understand why you are using gold finders like Panda: if you cap your heroes without them, they are irrelevant, since gold becomes worthless when you reach the cap...

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 6:39 PM
Last Edited June 2nd 2017 at 6:50 PM
Animenut
I just tried using an Exterminator build compared to my Sal build, and the Sal build had about 8.00e203 DPS, while the Exterminator build barely made it past the e196 mark. It wasn't even close. Doing the best I could to maximize damage, I was only able to even BEGIN killing enemies about 30 areas behind where Sal could manage to still be insta-killing.

As for why I have gold finders, there are two reasons for that.

1) Gold finders make startup easier. With hefty gold finders, I can get my formation set up with all abilities within, like, 2 minutes. Reset, almost instantly get all set up, let the thing run in the background.

2) Yes, I CAN level-cap without gold finders, but HAVING gold finders allows me to reach the cap sooner. I can cap out before area 900, and having uber-DPS won't get me to 900 any faster as long as I'm still insta-killing. The extra 150 areas don't really make much of a difference in terms of idol buffing since I would have already level-capped, so it isn't a question of "Can I reach the cap without gold finder?" and rather "How soon can I reach the level cap?" If it makes the most sense to reset when you've hit the level cap, then wouldn't it make the most sense to reach the level cap as soon as possible? It cuts time off of runs when I reach the cap at 870 instead of 970. That's a whole 100 areas' worth of time I don't have to spend.

I should also mention that I do not only have one formation. I have 3, usually. One for gold find/progression, to reach the cap asap, which includes hefty gold finders and speedsters like Mindy mimicking Billy and Baenarall, one for post-cap DPS if I happen to decide I want to see how far I can push (so just a pure DPS/support ability build), and a third based off the gold find build that is slightly edited to make sure I can quickly switch to, use Magnify/Storm Rider, then go back to my gold build.

257 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 6:40 PM
snow
The benefit of gold finders is speeding up the capping, after that you can switch formation and engage auto pilot again.

3 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 8:19 PM
Zenf
What about Ilsa? She seems like she would be really hard to use well, but has some rather huge buffs on herself and is the highest slot DPSer.

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 2nd 2017 at 8:28 PM
Animenut
The issue with Ilsa is that I have never actually seen her damage increase with "Absorb Evil". Otherwise, she'd be very useful to tack onto a DPS build with Merci. Get to the end of a run with whatever, then throw her into the formation to make use of all the damage the other DPSer got over time. If her "Absorb Evil" skill worked, I'd use her more.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 3rd 2017 at 6:29 AM
Teschio
Animenut, with Deep Idol Scavanger maxed, it makes sense to reset when you stop instakilling, not when you reach the cap. Therefore, gold finders are truly useless :D The difference between 970 and 870 is more idols than what you would get from 100 areas in another run.

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 3rd 2017 at 10:40 AM
Animenut
Teschio, that is actually wrong. Idols are based on buffs AND levels. Once you reach the cap, one of those factors stops increasing, and so the gain for the next 100 levels is less than the gain for the first 100 in a new run because the new run will start gaining levels again. Believe me, I've tested it. Going from about 870 to about 1070 (my reasonable stopping point) brought my total up only about 150-200 idols, which is basically tax on the 3500 I was getting before the update when I tested this. Compare that against 200 levels in a new run and it isn't even a contest. Beyond the cap, you're ONLY getting idols from area progression, whereas in a new run, you're getting idols for both area progression AND levels.

I think your confusion is coming from the fact that buffs are percentage-based. Understandably, you are seeing it as "If 100 extra areas gives another 50% buff, then that 50% is an amount based on more levels than you'd have at level 100 in a new run" which seems like it would be true. 50% of 128,000 is very different than 50% of, like, 4000 (by area 100). But the buff is additive, so that extra 50% has lost a lot of it's effect by the time you've hit area 900. It isn't adding 50% to your idols, it is adding 50% to the 450% buff. You're getting 1/9th the buff at that point, which might bring you from 3400 to 3550 (pre-update, since these are numbers I am more used to) for the approximate 60-90 minutes it would take to progress 200 areas, compared to the ~123 that you'd end up having by just area 100 in a new run (with a gold formation). By area 200, that number becomes about 270 idols.

To be clear, I did just test that last part in a new run while being able to sprint to area 100, ergo minimizing the time-buff (which was only 1% at that point). Looked at my reset amount of 8, which was -93.5% because of reset fatigue. If 6.5% = 8, then 100% = 123. By area 200, it was 300 after being buffed by 10%, so the base was about 270.

692 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 3rd 2017 at 3:01 PM
Teschio
Animenut, I never talk about something withoud doing the math behind it :D I know very well the difference between multiplicative and additive. Yes, the bonus is additive, but it is applied to a very large number in the first place (552, for 138k divided by 250). Progressing from area 900 to area 1000 without gaining a single level gives you 276 idols ([552*(6-5.5)]). Which, by your own admission, it's more than what you would get from 100 areas in a new run.

Ofc, the new t4 talent that allows you to skip a few hundred areas changes that. Now gold finders have a reason to exist again :D

3 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2017 at 3:16 AM
Aerich
Im using a Shadow Queen build for DPS, on the later levels. SQ only has 3 abilities that increase her base DPS but she's human, supernatural, Royal and most importantly at the far right of the spectrum. She gets buffed by Reginald (52k% due to lvl 7 cape), Princess (3 legendaries that boost 400, 800 and 400%), Thalia, Pres, Veronica, Pete, Monkey and Bubba. Mindy enforces Reginald and Veronica. Pretty big damage seeing the fact that most DPS legendaries are only lvl 4 or so.

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2017 at 1:26 PM
Last Edited June 5th 2017 at 1:27 PM
Animenut
Teschio, your conclusion lead to...6 more idols. Doing up to area 100 was able to basically match your number within the same amount of time (again, pre-update) using a gold-find build, which proves that gold finders were still at LEAST equally viable compared to later-run DPS, and objectively better than DPSers in early-run due to getting more gold by area 100 than DPSers would, leading to more levels.

"Are gold finders useful at the end of a run?" No, obviously, since levels are maxed already.

"Before the update, was post-cap progression better or worse than a gold-finding reset?" It depends in your gold find. If your gold finders do not buff your gold find especially well, then post-cap progression is better. If your gold finders buff you very well, your levels in a new run will quickly make up the difference of a greater end-run buff.

Conclusion: Before the update, gold finders were at least equal to DPSers in value if the gold finders found enough to offset the buff at the end of a run. However, this only applies to pre-update. Now that there is a time-based buff and a talent that drastically neuters startup slowness, post-cap progression TROUNCES gold finder resets due to an extra buff that is essentially non-existent at the start of a new run while sprinting. Ergo, post-cap progression is objectively better, while gold finders are still useful for setting up your formation earlier in a new run and reaching the cap to auto-pilot the end of a run sooner.

5565 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 5th 2017 at 2:01 PM
Raymond
some gold finders are good dps when legendary.
6 nore idols in how much wasted time? not efficient
can i have some of those beets, i like beets

2 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 10th 2017 at 12:08 PM
kanibalkow
I've been using Karen, the Cat Teenager as my main dps for a long time. By the time she maxes out Greyskull the Pirate is ready to assume main dps until he caps out. She is great because she can go anywhere and get all the buffs, so your formation can be all over the place and she still gets all the buffs. I've never even used Draco because he seemed unnecessary with Karen. Just put Groklok in the front with Bubba and you are good to go. She also crushes a lot of objectives because your main dps can die and come back to life. Mindy was also unnecessary until Sjin came out, NOW Mindy is awesome, before she had to be next to Billy and Baenarall, but now just Baenarall and Sjin.