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Codename Entertainment
Crusader Tag changes

18 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 12th 2017 at 7:23 PM
Last Edited August 12th 2017 at 7:24 PM
chyatt6385
Since the "alien" tag was added, wouldn't it make more sense to add that tag to Broot and Robbie? They're aliens too.

859 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 13th 2017 at 7:24 AM
Andreas
not from my point of view. There would be too many aliens for it being a rare tag in the game.

18 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 13th 2017 at 11:38 AM
chyatt6385
So 5 is "too many"? There are more animals, robots, elves, royals, and females than that. There are even more Leprechauns (4) than Aliens right now. Why would it need to be a "rare tag"? Right now, there are the same number of Angels as there are Aliens. If another were added, would that be "too many" Angels? Your reasoning escapes me.

IF we relied on the "source" material (Marvel's GotG), Spaceking would be alien as well.

38 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 18th 2017 at 3:42 PM
Jasmin
I agree with the OP, though perhaps for a different reason than intended. It seems that most of the missions for materials, gear, and rare or epic cards are loaded with the so-called "rare" tags. Which would be fine, except they also all have gear checks. Since the rng and I are mortal enemies, I do not have a single orc, angel, alien, dragon, or clicker entirely outfitted in epic+, which means I rarely am able to hit 100% on the card and gear missions. Then the rng kicks in yet again and I fail at 98% and say some very bad words.

For this reason, my vote is to add the tags as suggested. "Rare" tags plus gear check on rare-tagged crusaders is painful.

18 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 18th 2017 at 4:05 PM
chyatt6385
I was thinking more in terms of formation bonuses, since SpaceKing gets a buff for aliens. President Billy Smithsonian only buffs Kizlblyp from the original event; this could be changed to buff all aliens, maybe.

But missions are important too. Like when the demon tag requirement shows up - there's only Sally, and fortunately I don't use her as much as I do others in her slot.

859 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 18th 2017 at 4:48 PM
Andreas
Yes, there are more royal, animal, human, male and female tags. Because those aren't rare.

Why would it need to be a rare tag? Because the game is designed in a way that some tags are more rare than others. So that some buffs are not as powerful as others and some missions are not that easy to run with 100% chance to succeed. Yes, it is painful. That is part of the game design. Make it too easy and it becomes boring, unexciting and success in missions or particularly good buff less rewarding.

So, from my point of view, to add more crusaders with an alien tag is a lot better than to add more tags to existing crusaders to keep a certain balance.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 19th 2017 at 6:14 AM
Azamagon
There are actually a few Crusaders that could at least have their tags reconsidered a bit:

First, let's look at the categories of tags. As far as I can see, there are 4 categories:
1) Gender (Male, Female, Both or None)
2) Roles (DPS, Clicker, Support, Healer, Goldfinder, Tank)
3) Race (Human, Animal, Robot, Leprechaun, Orc, Elf, Dwarf, Alien, Angel, Demon, Dragon)
4) Other (Supernatural, Magical, Royal, Event)

Let's look at some of these:

*** RACES vs SUPERNATURAL ***
Imo; The Supernatural tag isn't a "race" token, but more of a special token, to indicate that this Crusader is mystical in some way that isn't just trained magical powers.
And, there are a few Crusaders where this has seemed to become their "race", even though they could easily get a race token.

BROOT - Broot's race is currently only Supernatural, which doesn't say much. Making him an Alien as well as Supernatural could thus work. Another point of view; Jack and Frosty are both "environmental" (i.e. plants or elemental) and they are conisdered ANIMALS. Thus, Broot could also make sense (in CotLI's universe) as an Animal. Either that, or make a new tag for plants/elementals for Broot+Jack+Frosty (although that'd be a heavy nerf for Jack and Frosty, current Animal-benefits considered).
That said, while Alien or Animal both could make sense, he already has 7 tags. But, imo, that's a somewhat moot point.

HENRY - Henry is a ghoul. Depending on how you wanna look at a ghoul, he is either undead or demon. Making a new undead-tag could be nice, but if feeling lazy, he could easily get the demon tag too. Either one would fit imo.

ZOMBIE WINTER - Zombie Winter, is similarly to Henry, a strong case of promoting the undead tag, more than anyone else. That said, if stretching the imagination a bunch, the Demon tag could fit for him too (the Demon tag could thus be a catchall tag for both Demons and Undead, even though they are generally considered quite different, similar to how Animal is a catchall for animals+plants+elementals despite their obvious differences).

As for the Alien tag -> I think that the Alien tag only fits on a non-earthling which can't be considered some other race-token as well. For example, Robbie is both an animal-oid and an alien, thus the Animal-tag takes priority. For Broot, he could be considered an animal (as explained above with the Jack/Frosty comparisons) or an alien. Depending which priority he takes, either one would fit, but he leans (imo) more towards animal (due to Jack/Frosty).
If there would be, say, an Orc from another planet, he'd still be an Orc, first and foremost, thus NOT granted an Alien tag as well. That's what I think what they mean by the Alien tag at least *shrugs*


*** GOLDFINDERS (and HEALERS) ***
Bat Billionaire has two tags possible for him, although understandly arguable:
Goldfinder -> Considering his Smart Investing skill, which he even has specific gear for.
Healer -> Due to Alchemy's existance. This if far more arguable though, due to being cooldown restricted. This applies for Merci and Polly too.

At the very least, I think Bat Billionaire deserves a goldfinder tag on him.

*** SUPPORT (and TANKS) ***
So, to be a support, you need to do something that sticks out; Significant DPSboost for others (possibly for self too, but irrelevant), aid other tanks, or any other utility which is not directly healing, self-tanking or goldfinding.

That then asks quite a few questions for several Crusaders:

Bernard the Bartender -> Why on earth is Bernard the Bartender a Support? His DPSboosting is on about the same level as Kyle the Partybro (legendaries aside). Bernard doesn't do ANYTHING significant besides finding gold. If one then argues that he has Magnify, well so does Detective Kaine, who is NOT considered a Support.
Either buff his supportiveness, or remove his Support-tag (or give the Support-tag to Detective Kaine too).

Rocky the Rockstar -> Rocky can quite significantly increase the survivability of females, yet he is NOT a support?

Karen the Cat Teenager -> Incredibly versatile, capable of aiding in many ways, especially with things as tanking and supportive tasks. She is not only viable for the Support-tag, but the Tank-tag too.

Greyskull the Pirate -> He has his cannon attack, imo worthy enough to be considered of having a Support-tag.

Zombie Winter -> He also slows enemies down, on top of being a goldfinder. Definitely worthy of a Support-tag imo.

Petra the Pilgrim -> She buffs Pete quite significantly (similar to Robbie having a Support-tag, even though all his supporting is aimed at Broot), while also providing splash-DPS. She could for sure deserve a Support-tag.

Warwick the Warlock -> Similar to RoboRabbit (a Crusader with a Support-tag), but more powerfully so, Warwick grants a rather significant DPS-boost via clicking. He could also get a Support-tag.

So, TL;DR on the Support stuff:
Bernard - Buff to earn Support-tag, or remove his Support-tag.
Rocky - Add Support-tag
Greyskull - Add Support-tag
Karen - Add Support-tag + Tank-tag
Zombie Winter - Add Support-tag
Petra - Add Support-tag
Warwick - Add Support-tag

*** MAGICAL and SUPERNATURAL ***
These are all arguable, but still;

The Princess -> All this fire she does could arguably be magically created. She SEEMS to be a magician of some kind, no?

The Dark Helper -> All the stuff she does seems somewhat magic-oriented, or mystical. Or no? Doesn't she seems to deserve the Magical or Supernatural tag?

Jason, Master of Shadows -> I have two reasons why I'd consider giving him the Supernatural tag:
1) The Shadow Queen is oriented towards being (besides being a generally awesome support) a buffer for Jason. But one of the Legendary effect she has directly only benefits Supernatural crusaders, thus making her buffing-potential towards Jason completely pointless in the end. If Jason had the Supernatural tag, she could potentially actually remain a good buffer for him (and other Supernaturals too ofc)
2) While Jason seems very gadget-based (a la Bat Billionaire), he also has a whole lot of the "mystical ninja" vibe to him, which could arguably hint at him ALSO having some mystical powers. Thus, Supernatural seems fitting.



This became far longer than I wanted it to be! xD

18 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 19th 2017 at 7:02 AM
chyatt6385
@Azamagon: Very well reasoned. One hopes the devs might seriously consider your analysis.

38 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 19th 2017 at 7:48 AM
Jasmin
Azamagon - Excellent post, very well thought out.

Andreas - I understand your concern. However, the fact that I need to have epic gear on crusaders I'm sending on rare recipe missions in order to have 100% chance does not make sense to me. Plus it really is annoying when they fail.

41 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 24th 2017 at 1:34 PM
LorinBardric
I also like the analysis of Azamagons post, but I would like to add a point:

***ANIMALS (and robots)***
as it seems to me, the animal and robot tag seem to exclude each other. I was wondering about the reason behind it.
if a pumpkin (Jack) and a snowman (Frosty) are considered as animal, I don't see any reason why RoboRABBIT and RoboTURKEY are not considered as an animal?
The same goes for RoboRudolph. Even though he doesn't have the animal in his name, it's quite obvious to me, that a reindeer should also be considered as animal.

if a crusader can have both sex-tags (Broot), be orc and elf at the same time (half-blood elf) and be human and robot (Metal Soldierette) then it should also be possible to be robot at the same time.

The only point I found was Draco's "Survival of the fittest" which works like "animal VS robot". But on the other hand this isn't really a point because "Kingdom's Call" works like "royal VS non-royal humans" so it should be no problem to change "Survival of the fittest" to "animal VS non-animal robot".

what are your thoughts about this?

18 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 25th 2017 at 7:16 AM
Last Edited August 25th 2017 at 7:18 AM
chyatt6385
@LorinBardric
Hadn't really thought about those mixed tags, but it has always bugged me that supernatural "constructs" like Jack and Frosty should be called "animals" and not something else . . . like robots. So remove the "animal" tag and give them a combo robot/supernatural tag, perhaps.

And to balance the equation -

I know there have been times when I needed an animal tag for a mission and was completely out of them on the bench because it's a tag that's very commonly called for in missions, so I sympathize and endorse the concept of the robot/animal combos as well. I've had, for example, RoboRabbit on the bench and looked at him and thought, Why can't I just use HIM? He's a rabbit, right? What's the use in giving him gender if he's not even alive, except to add the animal tag? We have a robot/female/elf (Veronica), after all.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 26th 2017 at 8:08 AM
Azamagon
@LorinBardric

Actually, I (sort of) disagreed with the robot and animal discussion.

A robot is a mechanical construct. An animal is a living being. Just because a robot LOOKS like an animal, doesn't mean it IS an animal.
If you had an animal with robotic implants (a Cyborg-animal), then it'd work, but not otherwise.
Think about it like this: If a robot looks like a human, do you then consider it human? No? Then the same thing goes if it just looks like an animal.

As for the case of Veronica (as chyatt6385 mentioned), it could be that she is a CYBORG, which is why she can be both have an elf and a robot.

Or maybe her being an android is what draws the line; it could have made her biological enough for her racial appearance to matter (to some degree), thus can legit also be considered an elf? Androids is a difficult matter, imo.

In contrast for the "counterpoints" you mentioned:
* Broot is, presumably, a plant that can function both as a female and a male at once. This even exists IRL, even with certain ANIMALS. His dual gender tag can make total sense.
* Halfy is literally both orc and elf. Her dual tag makes total sense too.
* Metal Soldierette can, at a glance, be considered a stretch. That is, if you think her robotic suit is just a mechanical suit, calling her a robot would then make little sense (then Crusaders like Kizlblyp and Slisiblyp should also be robots, due to using mahcines as well).
However, if she actually has the robotic suit partially implanted in her, then she'd make sense as both a human and robot (a.k.a. Cyborg). And that's actually hinted at if you read her Common and Rare Power Core gear flavour texts.
And/or, if she has an AI inside of the suit (making her literally incased in a robotic construct), the tags also makes sense.
And considering she is a direct reference to Iron Man (who actually has a mechanical implant to keep him alive AND has a suit which can be aided with AI), I think her being considered both a human and a robot is not a stretch at all.

That said, I guess one can't look TOO logically on these things though, after all, then one could even claim that no robot should have any gender either (considering they only LOOK like a male or female, but it doesn't mean that they truly are). This can be seen with Foresight who has no gender, although in his case the lack of gender is very likely due to how his kit works.

So, it's part logic and part game balance going on in regards to the tags. For example, in the case of robots, I think it is mainly due to game balance why the robots with animal shapes are NOT considered animals, but can still be considered to have a gender.

In my personal opinion; Pure robots (and Androids) are a very complex area to deal with, thus I think those in particular are up to the developers and how they wanna balance their game to decide.

That said, something I personally disagreed with (as already mentioned) is that being purely "supernatural" is not enough in regards to racial tags. Which is why I'm fine with Frosty/Jack as they are, but not completely fine with Broot/Zombie/Henry.

Also; Sidenote -> I forgot Katie the Cupid (another one of purely supernatural race). She could be considered an Angel-type too, no?

41 Posts
Link to post - Posted August 26th 2017 at 12:42 PM
LorinBardric
I have to admit your argumentation about the robot-cyborg-story makes totally sense to me. basically I asked for your opinion, because I thought that probably someone found a point of view in which it makes sense.

whereas talking about Katie the Cupid: I believe I have read about this discussion already in some other thread. If we want to be correct about the "mythological" part of it, then Cupid is a god, which is not really an angel. And going a step further, he is a Roman god - and I believe in Roman mythology there are no angels at all (only even more gods ;-).
[but I'm not 100% sure about the "angels in Roman mythology" statement, there I could've missed something]
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