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Codename Entertainment
Warwick still a concern

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 9th 2017 at 1:50 PM
Animenut
With the release of Warwick's new golden epic gear, I feel it is worth bringing this up again as a relevant concern...

Warwick. Just. Isn't. Useful. Some players might use him with Gold-O-Rama, but that's it. As a clicking crusader, he is next to useless without some way to absorb DPS into click damage. The whole point of clicking crusaders is to give a special advantage to the player actually being at the game. Instead of leaving it to play itself, actually being at the game allows the player to significantly buff their damage by using clicking crusaders which are otherwise minimally-useful while away.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but Warwick is a really interesting crusader that I WANT to use but have absolutely no reason to use. Have his DPS-absorb skill be weaker than Bush Whacker's or something, but at least give him one to make him worthwhile. "Curse of Weakness" is a skill that I like in concept, but it isn't a replacement for a DPS-absorb skill since it is effectively the same mechanical idea (click to deal more damage) but way, WAY weaker than just straight click damage.

I am obviously not against new golden epic gear, but if golden gear is going to be given to a crusader as unique as a clicker-type, at least make that crusader worth powering up. Especially with the inclusion of legendary gear, the chasm-like gap between his max click damage and the formation's DPS just grows more and more massive, and "Curse of Weakness" skill just does not come anywhere near bridging that gap.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 10th 2017 at 10:43 AM
Last Edited June 23rd 2017 at 4:57 AM
Azamagon
Since Bush Whacker is the BASE clicker (and currently the only good one), the other clickers should be worthwhile too, if not outright situationally better.
While it might seem bad for variety to make all of the Clickers scale with passive DPS, it's still one of the best and simplest ways to go (Especially considering the effort required to do a click-based formation). Not to mention, that would work better with the talents and their existing gear too.

However, I can see an alternative path for Warwick: Make sure that his kit and gear is mainly related to CONSTANTLY upgrading passive DPS via clicking. This would require some rearranging of his skills though ofc. This would an interesting alternative (imo), because that could keep "shot"-skills (like Veronica's Fire! or Arachnobuddy's Web Blast) relevant for much longer too. A potential problem, unless his mechanics are dealt with cleverly, is that clicking talents are then potentially wasted for him.

Either way would be fine by me.

But hey, why not give some suggestions. Try to look at them as a whole:

* His ability "Syphon" could be changed into this: "Increases your Click Damage by 1% of your DPS". Much weaker than Swordplay, but it works at full effect regardless of how you position him.

* Basic Crusaders (like Princess and Emo etc) who buff Bushwhacker's Swordplay could be less specific: Their Swordplay-boosting abilities could simply be Total clickdamage-boosting abilities, so they work with ANY Clicker crusader.

* Warwick's Hat gear (which increases his click damage) could instead affect his new Syphon-effect. However, it should then scale like supportive gear does (10/25/50/100 etc) instead of as DPS gear (25/50/100/400 etc).

* Curse of Weakness could affect further clickdamage too, not just passive DPS. This compensates for Syphon's weaker base effect (when compared to Swordplay). That way, his cape's legendary effect also becomes almost as strong as Bush Whacker's hat legendary.

* Now Soul Harvest's splash effects needs a reason to exist (as it could be detrimental to CoW and Syphon's strengths otherwise). Maybe change Curse of Agony into something like this: "Each enemy clicked increases global DPS by 10%. Stacks multiplicatively and unlimitedly, but an enemy only ever counts for one stack each. Each individual stack bonus lasts for 5 seconds, but is refreshed when reclicked. The entire effect resets when changing areas."

NOW he is a Splash-click-Crusader quite worthy of existing, no? :)

To compare them:
Swordplay is 5% of base DPS. 15% with Legendary Wand.

Syphon is 1% of base DPS. 3% with Legendary Hat. Add to it Curse of Weakness's tripling damage and its effect goes up to 9%. Now add Curse of Agony into it: Click just 6 different enemies and Curse of Agony has increased your total DPS by ~77% (1,1^6). Now your click damage is 9 * 1,77 = 15,9% of DPS, surpassing Swordplay. However, his click damage simply gets higher and higher the more enemies gather on the screen!

Thus Warwick is now MUCH better for clicking multiple enemies, but Bush Whacker is better for single target clicking (Then we have RoboRabbit, who ought to be EVEN better for single target clicking, but in a more bursty way, in contrast to Bush Whacker's sustained style).
His DPS support via clicking is also WAY better (+200% damage via CoW and +10% multiplicatively per enemy via CoA), making him a really nice DPS-supporter when his total clickdamage's power might be a bit meh (when you don't have many click-trinkets, for example). I find such a powerful support to be very reasonable, considering it's a CLICKING-based support.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 23rd 2017 at 4:55 AM
Azamagon
Bumping this up.

@Animenut: What do you think about my suggestions?

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 23rd 2017 at 10:32 AM
Animenut
Very well thought out idea. The math all works out by the end to reach BW's effectiveness without just being a flat absorption, so the skills work in an interactive way that keeps things interesting. The abilities themselves are useful and fit the theme of an AoE clicker, so it is not discordant. I can't see anything I would change. Everything works well and seems well within plausibility to be able to implement in the game's engine. Good work, Azamagon.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 24th 2017 at 2:34 AM
Azamagon
@Animenut
Thank you :)

I have a feeling that he could still be a tad bit stronger than what I proposed (considering that his click damage is split evenly, after all), but the point was more to show an example of HOW he could fill the AoE-clicker niche.

I also think Soul Harvest, in itself, could be a bit better. Like, it also slows clicked targets by 20% or something (weaker than Slisiblyp, but applies to multiple enemies at once)?

781 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 24th 2017 at 11:01 AM
Animenut
I actually don't think it would need to be stronger just because the damage splits. That's the purpose of the skill - to take the damage you'd normally be dealing to one enemy and split it over multiple enemies. The damage output is the same. It's just being spread to more than one target. Yeah, each individual target takes less damage than the one target when using BW, but that's the point. The risk/reward factor is balanced that way. Risk = dealing less damage per enemy. Reward = dealing damage to more enemies than usual. That's the power/accuracy/range/speed/cost trade-off of pretty much any ability in any game ever.

130 Posts
Link to post - Posted June 25th 2017 at 1:51 AM
Azamagon
Well, by a tad bit stronger, I really meant just a tad bit stronger though. Like, with 6 enemies clicked, he could have 20% of DPS as clickpower, instead of 15,9%. Or rather, he surpasses BW already at 4 or 5 enemies clicked, rather than at 6 clicked. That's all.

However, I think that my suggested Curse of Agony could be merged into Soul Harvest. Because, skipping Soul Harvest, if there are not lots of enemies, you can manage manually clicking a few enemies, then go back to the main clicking target, for the same benefit, but without the (potentially not so good) clicksplitting. By putting the CoA bonus on Soul Harvest itself, you can't circumvent it any way.
CoA could slow enemies down instead, or do anything else, really. Something that reinforce that he works best by clicksplitting.
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